Mr. W. F. MACLEAN (East York).

Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day arc called, I wish to ask the attention of the House to a matter which I consider of supreme importance to this country, and to put myself in order I shall conclude with a motion.

Mr. SPEAKER.

I understand that the hon. gentleman will conclude with a motion to adjourn the House ?

Mr. MACLEAN.

I will move the adjournment of the House, and to that motion I propose to speak.

Mr. SPEAKER.

The hon. member may be absolutely in order in moving the adjournment of the House, but at the same time I would call his attention to the fact that he will doubtless have ample opportunity to discuss the question which he has in view under our ordinary procedure. Unless the question is of really urgent importance, it is harldy regular to bring it up in this form. At the very outset, I wish to direct the attention of hon. members to the fact that it would be much more convenient if questions of ordinary importance were placed upon the Order baper. It would greatly facilitate the business of the House if this course were adopted.

From the year 1867 up to the year 1896, during a period of nearly thirty years, there were about twenty-five motions to adjourn the House made for the purpose of bringing a special subject before the House. However, during the last session of parliament there were no fewer than thirty-four motions of that character. It is only necessary to mention this to the House to show the change that has taken place, and I might be permitted to express the opinion that it would be more regular if these motions to adjourn the House were only made in connection with questions of the most urgent importance.

Mr. MACLEAN.

Even under your suggestion, Mr. Speaker, I can still raise the question, because it is a question of the most urgent importance to the people of Canada. I desire to bring before this House, and before the country, the great fact transpiring in the United States to-day as to the control of railways. The railway mileage of that country is now passing into the hands of a most powerful syndicate. This syndicate controls most of the railways of the United States, and there is a dread that within two or three weeks there will not be one line of railway in the neighbouring republic which will not be controlled by Mr. Rockefeller, Mr. Vanderbilt, Mr. Harri-man, Mr. Hill-whose name we hear a great deal of in Canada-and some others. These men have under their power now over $2,000,000,000 of railway capital, and not only that, but these same men control the banking institutions, they control the coal fields, they control the Standard Oil Company, and only last week they got control of the entire iron production of the United States. Last night there was a statement- and here is wheft the question comes home to Canada-in the Montreal Star

Oh, oh. Where ?

Mr. MACLEAN.

Perhaps the statement is reported as coming from a friend of hon. gentleman opposite. That statement is this :

It would not be very difficult for the powerful financial interests which Mr. Hill represents to secure a majority of the common stock of the great Canadian Pacific Railway.

Now, the point that I want to bring before the people of Canada and this House is this, that these men, who have obtained control of the railways of the United States, are in a position to-day to capture' the control of both the Grand Trunk Railway and the Canadian Pacific Railway. I can go further : I believe that tracers are out to-day after the stock of these two railways, in order that Messrs. Morgan, Rockefeller, and the men associated with them may, if they think it necessary, get the control of these two Canadian roads ; and I call the attention of the people of this country to this fact, that less than $50,000,000 put on the stock market to-day will secure the control of the

Canadian Pacific Railway. Did this country put all the money which it has put into the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Grand Trunk Railway in order to build railroads which might pass any day from the control of this country to the control of the United States ? What do we see happening at this moment ? These Canadian railroads, in connection with which the people of this country have spent so much money under reputed Canadian or English management, are to-day a menace to Canada. The Canadian Pacific Railway and the Grand Trunk Railway have announced that they intend to shape their policies to build up American cities, if necessary, at the expense of Cana,-dian cities. There is the great question before the people of this country. We were discussing platitudes yesterday in this House, but here is a definite question. The Grand Trunk to-day is antagonizing the city of Montreal, and I believe the Canadian Pacific is antagonizing the city of St. John. These two railroads tell the people of Canada, openly and above board, that they have no consideration for Canadian interests, but will, if it is in their own interests, direct their traffic to the United States. If that is the case to-day, how much worse will it be when Messrs. Morgan and Rockefeller and their associates go on the stock market and secure control of the Grand Trunk and the Canadian Pacific Railway ? I am not dealing in a generality, but am speaking of something that might happen to-morrow. My hon. friend from West Toronto (Mr. Osier) occupies a seat on the board of directors of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and he and Mr. Shaughnessy might attend a board meeting to-morrow and have an intimation made to them that the Canadian Pacific Railway had passed from the control of Canadians to the control of these gentlemen in New York.

Mr. DAVIS.

How are you going to stop it ?

Mr. MACLEAN.

I will tell you how to stop it, and I am going to appeal to history. The most significant thing that has happened in my time was the thing which Benjamin Disraeli accomplished not so many years ago in connection with the Suez canal. He made an arrangement with the bankers of the British government by which he had the necessary money placed at his disposal, and before anybody knew anything about it, the world woke up and learned that England owned the controlling shares of the Suez canal. That was a first-class investment, and one of the things resulting therefrom is that Egypt is to-day one of the most important and growing sections of the British Empire. I say that if we are alive to the danger which seems to overhang our country, this parliament, irrespective of party, will take the bull by the horns, and place Canada in a position, if necessary, to go on the stock

market and buy the control of these two great Canadian railroads. Here is the point : the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Grand Trunk, as owned and controlled to-day, actually antagonize our own country, our own ports, our own canals, our own river routes, our own fast Atlantic service-antagonize Canadian interests in every way. But if the state had control of these railways, they would be the complement of our canals, of the Intercolonial Railway, of our rivers and harbours, and they would be, what they are not now, national railways helping to build up this country.

Some hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House are disposed to make sport of this ; but I read only yesterday in an Ottawa paper that the Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Tarte) proposes to extend the Intercolonial Railway across this continent so as to give the people of Canada some relief from the exorbitant rates charged by the Canadian Pacific Railway. I believe in that, if we cannot nationalize the Canadian Pacific ; but it will cost more to extend the Intercolonial across the continent to the other seaboard than it would to acquire today the control of the Canadian Pacific Railway. There is the present and immediate way of settling the transportation problem of this country ; there is the way to get a fast Atlantic service-to use the railways of Canada to build up our Atlantic ports ; and it can be done for less than $50,000,000. The country would not have to bear any more expense in connection with the bonds and the various investments of the railway than it bears to-day. It is the traffic that pays all these expenses. In fact, I believe, the capital could be converted to a 21 or 3 per cent basis instead of having to bear the rather high rates that prevail to-day. The country would benefit in that way and in a thousand other ways from such an action on our part. We should not for a single day longer allow the control of our railways, and it may be the control of our coal areas, to stand in danger of passing over to the capitalists of the United States. And there is something coming in the United States. I believe a revolution is imminent there. What is likely to happen was depicted the other day in a cartoon in a New York paper in which Uncle Sam was watching some boys-Morgan, Rockefeller and others-putting the railways into a bag, and he said to the boys. ' When you get them all into one bag, I intend to take them over.' That is the position of matters in the United States. There are great constitutional difficulties in the United States in the way of the government taking over the railways ; but in Canada all that is required is a resolution to be passed by this House, and the Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Fielding) ought to be able in twenty-four hours afterwards to make arrangements by cable in England to have the Mr. MACLEAN.

necessary money to buy the control of the railways. It is au easy thing for us to do. We have extended the Intercolonial Railway, and it is the best asset Canada has to-day. I am told the Minister of Railways (Hon. Mr. Blair) is in favour of extending the national railway. If he is, he is on good lines. The Intercolonial Railway must not end where it is to-day. The people have substantial grievances, which must be remedied, and the way to remedy them is to stop chartering railways and giving away to railway corporations the lands of the country.

Somebody is going to tell me that there will be corruption and maladministration attending this project. I would be prepared to pay a man like Mr. Hays, who is admitted to-day to be the first railway man in America, $100,000 a year, if necessary, to administer our railways absolutely for the benefit of the people and irrespective of party or political considerations ; and we can get such a man. Perhaps we could get three men to do the Work for a great deal less money. But what I am talking about is a serious present problem before the people of Canada, which may be forced upon their attention any day-a problem which must be solved, and to which immediate public attention should be directed; and we should have some statement from the government as to what they would do if they should wake up some morning and find that our two great Canadian railways had passed into the hands of that enormous syndicate in the United States which to-day controls nearly every mile of railway in that country, which controls every acre of coal lands, which controls the Standard Oil Company, which controls the iron output of the country, which control^ the banks. (Mr. Morgan is besides the greatest banker in the world to-day), and directing its energies against Canada and controlling our railways with the capital behind it, could wipe the name of Canada from off the face of the earth, and that is the only thing that could do it.

Oh no.

Mr. MACLEAN.

I am glad to hear the hon. the Postmaster General say that even they could not do it. I know of some who tried to do it a few years ago and did not quite succeed. I wish, in all seriousness, to call the attention of this House and the entire country to the situation as it exists to-day and ask, under these circumstances, some information from the government of what they are likely to do under the circumstances.

I would not like to be offensive to my hon. friend, but I would suggest to him that if he were serious at all in the policy which he has adopted, he has

not chosen the best method of bringing the policy he advocates to the attention of parliament. The suggestion made by him that the government should buy the Canadian Pacific Railway is surely worthy of some notice beforehand so that we should have time to consider such a large question. But he has chosen instead to bring up this question, without a moment's notice, to the attention of the House. I would suggest, at the opening of this session, that we ought, as much as possible, to adhere to the old rule that no question be brought to the attention of the House on a motion to adjourn except one of great urgency.

Mr. MACLEAN.

Hear, hear.

I do not see the urgency in this case. This matter can stand until to-morrow. I do not think it is of such a character that twenty-four hours' notice would be too much to give, before proceeding to its discussion. If he is anxious to have the question brought up without a moment's loss of time, he could do so, within the rules, by calling attention to it in a few moments when we move that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply. And even if the House be not ready to go into supply

Mr. MACLEAN.

The motion could be moved in order to give my hon friend the opportunity he desires, which I, for my part, would be glad to give him. I therefore have no other course to ask the House to take than to vote his motion down.

Mr. N. CLARKE WALLACE (West York).

I think, Mr. Speaker, that this House is entitled to a little more information from the government than has been given us. The matter brought before our attention by my hon. friend from East York (Mr. Maclean) is one of momentous importance to the people of Canada. The right hou. the First Minister has either not been seized with its importance, or, for some other reason, is not prepared to make any statement about it.

But take the facts, as we know them, connected with this railroad question. We have had the information give us within the past few days that the Grand Trunk Railway has made the city of Portland its ocean seaport, not only for the winter months, but the whole year round. This magnanimous, generous and beneficent government built a bridge for this company in order to enable it to take its business away from Montreal to Portland, and the Grand Trunk Railway boasts that that bridge has been built without a dollar of cost to that company. I have always said in parliament, and this side of the House always protested that the bargain made with the Grand Trunk Railway and the Drummond County deal, was a most improvident one. But leaving the Drummond County Railway aside for

the moment and dealing simply with the Grand Trunk Railway, this government gave them sufficient money to enlarge the Victoria Bridge across the St. Lawrence and to carry that product, which we all desire should be shipped from the Canadian ports of Montreal or Quebec in the summer, and Halifax or St. John in the winter, to a foreign port. Now we have the important information from Mr. Reeves that the whole of that business in winter and summer is to be transported to Portland. The Grand Trunk Railway say that they have made enormous investments in Portland and ask: Are we to leave those investments idle? And they have been aided by the generosity-or rather I should say by the extravagance, the unjustifiable extravagance, of this government-to make Portland the winter and summer terminus of their road. Here is a most disastrous position of affairs. We have our Canadian cities down by the sea, Halifax and St. John, of which we are proud, and whose growth and increase we should do our best to develop. Then we have the city of Quebec, which is beginning to show- and we are glad to know it-signs of increased prosperity, and the great city of Montreal, the ocean port of Canada. Yet we are told to-day that the business of this country, so far as the Grand Trunk can do it, is to be carried past our doors into a foreign and hostile country. I protest that the government should have something to say about these matters rather than make the poor plea that it is inconvenient to bring them up, that we should adhere to the old rule and let the motion stand until to-morrow. when the House goes into Committee of Supply. In my opinion that is a most absurd proposition. You cannot move an amendment to the motion to go into supply because the government will then say: This is a want of confidence motion, and will call on all its supporters to vote it down without discussion. My hon. friend from East York (Mr. Maclean) has taken the proper course in bringing this matter to the attention of the House.

Then there is another question, which arises in a distant locality, but is closely connected with the one now before the House. We read from day to day that James J. Hill, of the Northern Pacific Railway, is acquiring possession of Canada's great coal fields, the Crow's Nest coal fields, and that he will apply to parliament for a charter to build a road into that district. It is true that the speech from the Throne gives us no enlightenment or information about this important matter, but we would like to know something about it. We would like to know whether the Crow's Nest coal fields, the greatest perhaps in the world today, are to be handed over to this rival corporation beyond the jurisdiction of the parliament of Canada or the government, which three or four years ago manipulated them in the interest of its friends.

There is another matter connected with this. We all remember when the right hon. the First Minister, at a banquet in the city of Toronto, was hailed as a great deliverer because he had got a telegram from Mr. Fielding, his Finance Minister, in England, stating that the Fast Atlantic steamship service was an accomplished fact- the business was concluded. Perhaps, I am mistaken in saying that the telegram was from the hon. Minister of Finance; it may have been from the hon. member for Quebec West (Hon. Mr. Dobell). At any rate, it was from some minister in England-but there are so many ministers in England at different times that we cannot keel) track of them. To-day, as I have said, we have a confession that there is to be no fast Atlantic line. And we have it further said that we do not need a fast Atlantic line. Why, of course not. If Portland, New York and Boston are to be the ocean ports for the Dominion of Canada, what do we want with fast steamers from Montreal, Quebec, Halifax, or St. John ? All these things seem to be going together; and we have a government in power to-day that, so far as we can see, do not realize their duty in relation to these matters. We wish to rouse the government and to make them realize that these are important questions and that we expect them to do their duty to the country with regard to them.

Mr. JOHN OHARLTON (North Norfolk).

The hon. member for West York (Mr. Wallace), possibly, has pursued a line not relevant to the question raised by the hon. member for East York (Mr. Maclean), when he attacks the government for its policy in aiding railways in the past. I imagine that the question raised by the hon. member for East York is one that we can discuss with better results if we abstain from partisan attacks upon the government for policy or action not directly bearing upon that question. It is possible that a better course could have been pursued by my hon. friend from East York in presenting this question to the House than that which he has pursued. But the question is before us norv for discussion; and it might be well to devote just a little time to it to call the attention not only of the House, but of the country to this important matter. I must confess that the position taken by my hon. friend from East York with regard to the imminence of a great crisis in this country in relation to monopolies and to transportation affairs is a position, perhaps, well taken. The absorption by a few individuals in the United States of the entire railway system of that country is a portentous fact; and the development and present condition of affairs in that country are of a character to challenge our attention. Results are being wrought out there which should be to us a warning as to the course which we shall pursue. Everything in the United States seems to tend to pass the leading Mr. WALLACE.

business interests into the hands of trusts aud rings and monopolies. A few days ago a steel trust was formed with a billion dollars capital.

A thousand millions.