Mr. MACLEAN.

Does the hon. gentleman intend to make any provision for Mr. Thornton getting the seat to which he has been elected, and for the reference of cases arising out of little imperfections in carrying out the law, to a county judge, where speedy justice can be obtained, as in the case of a recount and in municipal election cases ?

The para-ticular election of West Durham is a matter which does not come within the purview of my powers, but within the powers of the House generally. The hon. gentleman's second point deserves consideration, and when the Bill comes up I will try to provide some short method of disposing of preliminary objections.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

All my hon. friend meant was whether the provision of the Bill with respect to a certified cheque would be made retroactive.

I would have to ask my hon. friend's opinion as to

the propriety of such retroactive legislation.

RODDICK (Montreal, St. Antoine) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 65) to provide for the establishment of a Medical Council in Canada.

He said : -I am very glad to have the opportunity of explaining this measure which, I think, is one of very considerable importance, and somewhat misunderstood in some quarters. Confederation had hardly been consummated when the medical profession of the four provinces, then constituting the Dominion, made up their mind that a mistake had been probably made in leaving the profession In the hands of the provincial governments. While common school education, grammar school education, and academy education, might well have been left in the hands of the provincial governments, it is questionable whether it was good policy or advisable to leave the professions, especially the profession of medicine, entirely under their control. Medicine, which is so cosmopolitan, it was thought, might well have been left to the central or Dominion government. In fact so thoroughly convinced on this point did the profession appear to be, that immediately after the British North America Act was passed, representatives of the profession from Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick, met in the city of Quebec, as early in the history of confederation as 1867, the year of its birth. The president on that occasion elected was Dr. Tupper, now Sir Charles Tupper, and representatives of all nationalities and creeds were present. It was decided, after some discussion, to draft a Bill which should be presented to the Dominion government, to the effect that so far as the profession of medicine was concerned, the British North America Act should be amended so as to give the profession of medicine over to the central government. This Bill was worked up very thoroughly for two years, and in this city, in 1869, a meeting of the profession was held, then under the name of the Canadian Medical Association. This Bill was discussed at very considerable length during several days, but was not passed by the Canadian Medical Association and was practically killed. I believe that the want of success on that occasion was due to the fact that an attempt was being made to override the British North America Act by taking away from the provinces all power in connection with the medical profession and the granting of medical degrees. Another reason, I think, was that too large representation was asked by the universities. On that account the Bill was killed, and very little further was done in that direction. But, on many occasions, at the annual meetings of the Canadian Medical Association, this subject was brought up ; and, at last, about seven or eight years ago, it was

Mr. FIELDING.

decided to attempt to bring about a scheme of interprovincial registration. That means that the provinces should have an understanding among themselves that a man having a license to practice in one province should be allowed, on crossing the imaginary boundary line, to practice in the next province. This scheme went on fairly well until the Ontario Medical Council enacted that, before anything of that kind could be done it was necessary that a central examining board should be established in each province. Up to that time some of the provinces had no such examining board. Quebec never had from the very first. This central examining board was necessary according to the Ontario men, in order that the licentiates should receive recognition by the province of Ontario. There was a very strong feeling on the part of the profession in the province of Quebec in favour of bringing this about if possible, and establishing a central examining board in Quebec. The profession in that province went so far as to frame a Bill, which was presented before the local government at Quebec. But during that session of the legislature of Quebec, and when the Bill was about to come up, the heads of the three universities in the province of Quebec-McGill, Laval and Bishop's-appeared and opposed this Bill. They said that they could not allow their charter rights to be disturbed. According to the present usage, and from the time of confederation, it has been customary for the diplomas of these three universities to be accepted by the licensing body of the province of Quebec as sufficient to allow the holder to practice medicine in that province. Having discovered that it was impossible to meet the conditions of the Ontario Medical Council, and considering also that this provincial reciprocity would simply be a kind of understanding among the provinces which might have been destroyed at any moment, and also that it would stand in the way of a measure as general as we should like, thus preventing reciprocity with Great Britain and probably with France, the interprovincial scheme was dropped. Then, at a meeting of the profession in the province of Quebec three years ago, it being found that the scheme proposed was impracticable, the association representing the profession in the whole Dominion passed the following resolution :

Your committee desire to recommend that further steps he taken to ascertain the practicability of further legislation leading to the establishment of a federal qualification which will also place the profession in Canada on an equal footing with that of Great Britain, and that Dr. Roddick be authorized to take the necessary steps in the matter.

On the same occasion another resolution was passed, appointing a strong committee representative of the various provinces to assist and strengthen Dr. Roddick's hands

before the government. With this committee, Sir, I began to look about for a scheme. I consulted the law officers of the Crown, the parliamentary law officers and other legal friends, with a view to getting as much information as possible. I found that there were only two ways in which this parliament could interfere in this matter to gain what we sought. One was to bring about an amendment to the British North America Act. That, you know. Sir, is a large and heavy contract, and probably would never come to anything. An amendment to the British North America Act means that you must have, first or all, the assent of the two Houses of parliament in this country, then of the House of Lords and the House of Commons in Great Britain -and then, after all, the chances are, that when the matter was brought before the Privy Council it would be annulled and destroyed. So, that idea had to be given up. Then, I found-or rather, these legal friends found for me-another way out of the difficulty. Under section 91 of the British North America Act, the Dominion parliament has power to make laws

-for the peace, order and good government of Canada in relation to all matters not coming within the classes of subjects by this Act assigned exclusively to the legislature of the provinces.

Under this section, the Canada Medical Act and the Adulteration Act have been worked out since confederation. And I think you will agree with me, Sir, when I can prove, as can easily be done, that a medical man cannot cross the imaginary line between the provinces, cannot cross a river such as the Ottawa, without running the risk ot' being fined and, perhaps, imprisoned when he is atempting to save the lives of citizens of Canada, that the peace, order and good government of Canada are violated.

In order to bring about the change we desire, it will be necessary,, of course, to get the co-operaiton of all the provinces. It would be a mistake, in fact, it would be suicidal, to attempt anything without that co-operation. The autonomy of the provinces must not be disturbed in any way, nor need it be disturbed if the method that I shall propose is pursued. It will be necessary. either before or after the passage of the Bill in this House, for the medical board in each province of Canada to have an amendment made in the Medical Act of the province to the effect that, after the establishment of a Dominion medical council and a Dominion examining board, any one having the qualification which that council and that examining board will give him may go to another province in Canada and ask for admission to practice medicine in that province. Bach medical board will have to have a short enactment tacked on to the present Act in order that this may be carried out. Whether we have a permissive Bill here, a Bill which will anticipate or

precede the local enactment, or whether It shall succeed it, 1 think is a matter of very little consequence. There is one advantage in having it precede the local enactment, and that is, that it hurries up the local boards and the local parliaments in making their enactment. But, of course, it is a disadvantage in that it appears to be forcing the hand of the provinces, which I should be very sorry indeed to do.

Probably it does not occur to you, Mr. Speaker, or to other members of this House that it would be quite competent for this parliament to establish a Dominion medical board. It would be quite competent for the Minister of Militia and Defence to insist that every militia officer under the control of the Dominion government shall be examined before a Dominion examining board: it would he quite competent for the Solicitor General or the Minister of Justice to insist that every penitentiary surgeon shall pass an examination before a Dominion board ; it would be quite competent for the Minister of the Interior to insist that his mounted police, those under his control, shall have a Dominion qualification ; and in every new territory which is established by the Dominion of Canada under the control of this parliament, the same conditions might be exacted. Therefore, Sir, I think it is quite competent for this parliament to establish a Dominion examining board, and to pass a Dominion Act of this character. Of course, men who would have that qualification would, on the strength of that, have no right to practice in the various provinces, where provincial rights exist, and on that account it is too contracted in its character, and I should not advise that anything of the kind should be done.

Now, Sir, I think it can be proved that a Dominion medical council can be established. How is that council to be constituted V That is a very difficult question, and one which has given me more thought than any other. Shall this council be established on the principle of representation by population ? Shall it be established on the principle of the province having the greater number of medical men being represented in proportion on that council ? Worked out on a scheme of representation by population, it would mean a very large and unwieldy board. Ontario has 2,500 medical men ; Prince Edward Island has only 90, so faking Prince Edward Island as a unit, Ontario would be entitled to 28 representatives on this board ; Quebec with its 1,400 doctors would have 15 ; Nova Scotia with its 476 doctors would have 5; New Brunswick with its 243 doctors would have 2 and a fraction ; Manitoba with its 344 doctor's would have 3 ; British Columbia with its 214 doctors would have 2 ; the North-west Territories with their 95 doctors would have one and a fraction.

Now, Sir, would this be fair to the smaller provinces, considering the fact that we are Mr. RODDICK.

not going to disturb the status quo, that the medical boards of the provinces shall exist as they have always, done ? There is no intention to disturb them in any way ; they must exist under any circumstances for the purposes of discipline and taxation ; because the federal medical council could have nothing to do with discipline, that must be left entirely to the provincial boards. Considering the fact that we are not disturbing the provincial boards, do you think it would be necessary for Ontario to have 27 representatives on this board, for Quebec to have 15, for Prince Edward Island to have one, and so on ? I think not. I think a fairer way, under the circumstances, would be for each province to have the same number. That seems odd ; but we know that when the American constitution was drafted, the little state of Rhode Island was given two representatives in the Senate of the United States, and the great state of New York only two, and that system still exists.

I think a scheme would answer every purpose under which there would be three representatives on this council from each province of the Dominion, including the North-'

. west Territories, and making altogether 24. I would propose this method of electing them : The president of each medical council in each province would be ex-officio a member of this council, one would be elected from among the council, and one would be appointed by the Governor General in Council. That would give a representation of three from each province. Of course the question will be asked,/ why have a representative appointed by the Governor General in Council ? I will give you my reasons for making this proposition. This board of 24 with three others to be added, as I will explain in a moment, should become and will become what the British Medical Council is to Great Britain, and what the Council of Hygiene is to France, namely an advisory board to the Dominion government, a board that can be called upon in case of dangerous pestilence or incursion of disease of any kind, to give the best possible advice under the circumstances to the health officers of the Crown, and to the health officers of the various provinces. Of course the best men should be selected, and I think we could trust any government to see to it that politics would not enter into the selection. I am satisfied that every government would feel bound, in recommending these men as their advisers, to select those who were eminent in their profession, men who were perhaps professors in universities, men who would possess special qualifications. Under this scheme of three from each province you have a board of 24. But I am satisfied that three men could do the work which is required as well as 30 men. They are only expected to see that the conditions are carried out which are mentioned in this Bill. They are to see that the standard of education is not lowered, that the examination is at least

as high as it would be in any province of the Dominion of Canada. Three men, who have their local board to fall back upon for advice and counsel will do the work as well as thirty. I think that three will be quite sufficient.

Besides these we require to have three more. A question which met me in working out this scheme was that the homeopaths and those who practice homeopathy in this country have certain rights in all the provinces and that these rights must be respected. On that account I would suggest, and the suggestion did not come directly from me but from the homeopathic body, that three homeopaths be added to this council. In every province in Canada they have rights ; of course these rights must be respected, and I think it would be only fair to give them three representatives. I would have these three representatives elected by the homeopaths themselves by ballot from the whole Dominion, from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Wherever there are homeopaths let them have a vote and be allowed to select their three representatives on this council. They should also, besides that, have the right to examine in certain subjects which especially have to do with the practice of medicine, and they should have the privilege of having examiners. That will make a board of 27.

Mr. HYMAN.

May I ask the non. gentleman whether the homeopaths are satisfied with the provisions spoken of ?

Mr. RODDICK.

which are well worth having, the West India medical appointments and the appointments in India and in every British possession over which the British flag flies. They are now debarred from these prizes, and I say it is hardly fair, considering that we have the students and graduates of another colony where the facilities for teaching are not any better, if as good as they are in Canada, enjoying these privileges. Of course, I cannot speak authoritatively, hut in a conversation which I had three years ago with Dr. Charles Richer, who is well known as one of the ablest scientists in France, who is the professor of physiology in the University of Paris, and who is on the committee on constitution of the University of Paris, I had from him the assurance that if we had established in this Canada of ours, a Dominion board, qualifying for the practice of medicine, he had very little doubt indeed that he would be able to persuade his colleagues to acceiit those having that qualification. Therefore, not only would our English medical men have the British empire to roam in, but I feel satisfied from what I have learned that our French graduates would have France and her possessions for their field of labour. These are very strong reasons why this Bill should be well and favourably considered.

Of course, I am satisfied that the financial aspect of the question has to be taken into consideration. This medical council cannot be started, or at all events operated at the beginning, without some assistance, and when the matter is better understood I hope we will be able to persuade the right lion, the Prime Minister and his Minister of Finance that it would be nothing outre to give a grant towards this object at any rate for the first three or five years. This grant need not be very large; $3,000 or $4,000 would probably suffice. It would be necessary to pay the expenses of the examiners who shall be called on to hold examinations in the great centres of the country, and especially where there are hospital facilities. This being a Dominion measure and the government having practically the power to appoint one of these examiners, we may I think hope for some assistance from the Dominion treasury.

I have, of course, only glanced superficially over the provisions of the Bill, but I might further state that there is a clause which has reference to the profession of to-day. There is what you might call a retroactive clause in the Bill, to the effect that when any medical man has practised medicine for a certain number of years-the number of years has not been settled upon yet as to whether it shall be five years or seven years or longer-but when a man shall have been a practitioner of medicine in any province in the Dominion for a certain number of years he shall be allowed to take advantage of this legislation, and by paying the registration fee he will Mr. RODDICK.

be allowed to practice medicine in any province he may choose.

Now, to sum up the advantages of the Bill. I maintain, Mr. Speaker, that we may expect from it a higher standard of medical education, and from the fact of having five years to study, we may hope to get a better class of medical men than under a four years course. One great point to be remembered in connection with this measure is, that it is going to break down the barriers which at present exist, betwmen the various provinces. It may not be known to every member in this House, that at the present time it is illegal and practically impossible for a medical man to step across an imaginary boundary line from one province to another to practice his profession. I know a doctor living at River Beaudette, who has been fined three times already for crossing the imaginary line into the province of Ontario to attend to his patients. That man cannot go out at night without entering- the province of Ontario; his patients are in the province of Ontario and within sight of his own house, and yet it is practically impossible for him to avoid the operation of this existing law. It is the same way between Hull and Ottawa here. If you, Mr. Speaker, lived in the city of Hull, and for some personal or business reasons you were obliged to come to the city of Ottawa and to bring your family with you, it would be impossible for you to have your own medical man to follow you, unless he had a license to practice in the province of Ontario. That is unquestionably a very great hardship. Some one may ask me: why does he not get a diploma in the province of Ontario. The answer is: that it may have been impossible for him to do so. If a student begins to study medicine in one province by complying with the provincial enactment in reference to matriculation, he may be debarred for ever from getting into another province, so absurd are the regulations to-day. These barriers exist in no other country under the sun, and it is the object of this Bill to break them down. It is a fact, Mr. Speaker, that between the unfriendly countries of France and Germany, (and you know they are not very fond of each other), they have a neutral zone of fifteen miles on the frontier especially arranged for medical men to pass the sentries in the discharge of their professional duties; while here in this enlightened Dominion, a medical man is unable to cross an imaginary provincial boundary to save life. When you think how cosmopolitan medicine is; that a broken leg is a broken leg in Canada as in Russia and Siberia, and that pneumonia is treated on exactly the same principles here as elsewhere; it does seem hard that some more satisfactory arrangement cannot be made for our profession. I can understand that in law where you have the Code Napoleon in the province of Quebec and the English

civil law in the other provinces, it might be difficult though not impossible to have interprovincial reciprocity in that profession ; but such difficulties do not exist in connection with the practice of medicine. Another very great advantage of having a medical examining board empowered to give diplomas to practice in any part of the Dominion or of the empire, is, that you would relieve the congestion which no doubt exists in our profession in the Dominion. If all the fields for the display of energy which I have referred to were open to Canadians it would place our men in a far more advantageous position. Instances in connection with the South African war have been cited to me time and again, in which our Canadian doctors who accompanied the regiments were debarred from attending any but Canadian soldiers. They were good enough and as able as any other doctors in the field, but they could not attend any soldiers other than Canadians. That places the profession under a very great disadvantage. It throws a slur on our Canadian doctors. As I have stated, many of our Canadians were as capable as any medical men in the field, and it is too bad to think they were turned down simply because they did not have a diploma which they could not get, but which they will be able to get should this Bill become law. I hope that my right hon. friend the Prime Minister will consider this Bill of sufficient importance to appoint a committee of the medical men of this House to consider it. There are some thirteen or fifteen of us here now, all of whom would I am sure be pleased to assist i*!' r - r measure which would be satisfactory to ail; and of course we would like to have them supplemented by others, especially members of the legal profession. I apologize to the House for occupying so much of its time.

Mr. W. F. MACLEAN (East York).

The Bill which the hon. gentleman has introduced raises the question of the benefits of a legislative union as compared with those of a federative union, such as we have in Canada. There are cases in which a federative union is a disadvantage ; and we ought to consider not only how best to cure the evil which has been pointed out in reference to the practice of medicine, but other difficulties which are constantly arising in this country ; for instance, the question of our divorce and marriage laws, and the definition of an insolvent, a creditor and a debtor. In each of these cases there are a number of definitions, one province adopting one and another province another. The day is coming when a way out of these difficulties should be found. It is absurd that a practitioner of medicine cannot practice in every province of the Dominion. I believe the hon. gentleman (Mr. Roddick) has found a solution of that difficulty ; but he has only touched the margin of a

very important question. I do not think we can now ever come to a legislative union ; but I believe the cure will be found in appointing a royal commission of eminent men-say one of the judges of the Supreme Court, a man like the Clerk of this House, a representative of the Quebec judiciary, a representative of the Ontario judiciary, and so on, to study the question ; and when some kind of constitutional revision comes, as it must come in this country before many years, we shall have a fund of information collected which will be of the greatest value. There is something else coming. There is a great deal of talk, not only in this portion of the empire, but in every other portion, of the value and merit of Imperial unity. Imperial unity to my mind will have its value and its strength when the same laws obtain throughout the empire rather than in any kind of an Imperial federation. Why should there not be a code for the whole empire which would define, for instance, what a husband and a wife are, what a debtor and a creditor are ?

Mr. OSLER.

That is a pretty tough thing.

Mr. MACLEAN.

No, it is not. The right of a husband or a wife differs very largely in all the provinces of the Dominion. The same thing applies to the parties connected with a note and the parties connected with an insolvency. We will have to straighten out all these things in Canada, and some day throughout the empire; and when we have them straightened throughout the empire, and have an Imperial code that defines them in the same way in every part of the empire, then we shall have a bond of Imperial unity, uniting all the people of the empire together. It is an important question. But in regard to the particular matter before the House, the time has come when this parliament should deal with the question and enable a Canadian doctor to practice, not only all over Canada, but throughout the empire, just as doctors in the old country have a right to practice in Australia. I hope the suggestion made by the hon. member for Montreal (Mr. Roddick) will receive the consideration of the government; that he will get the committee he asks for, and the assistance of the government and the legal gentlemen in this House in the direction of securing uniformity throughout the Dominion.