Of course, the foundation is a very important part of it. I may mention that this appropriation is for the year to come. There was an appropriation last year of $11,000 for turntables. This $5,000 is to make the foundation walls as well as for a new turntable at Mulgrave.

Mr. HUGHES (North Victoria).

Could not the minister build a Y for about half that money ?

Not at Mulgrave. Any one who is acquainted with Mulgrave knows that we have all we can do to get down there. It is a very awkward situation, the only way you can get there is to back up.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

A petition has been forwarded to me with respect to the position of affairs at the Strait of Canso. I do not know whether it bears on this or not; I will read it to the hon. gentleman. It seems to have been signed toy a number of residents at Guysborough, Straight of Canso :

Humbly showeth, that whereas you, the hon. Minister of Railways, have publicly announced that there will be a large sum of money expended at the Strait of Canso for the purpose of providing better wharf and dock accommodation for the new ferry steamer, which is soon to ply on the Strait of Canso to meet the requirements of the enormous increase in freight and passenger traffic to and from Cape Breton ; and, whereas, the present wharf terminus of the government railway at Mulgrave is unfortunately located in a very cramped place under the hill with the inconvenience of a back switch for the approach to and from the main line of railway, and with very limited space for the extension of further railway facilities, and with no room to make further wharf and dock room free or secure from the regular current and ice which proves so troublesome in the ferry dock now in winter.

Does the bon. gentleman recognize it ?

Yes.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax)-(reading) :

Your petitioners therefore ask that you extend the main line only a few hundred yards further south to Pirate Harbour, a cove which, from its location, forms a natural terminus and direct approach to the main line of the government railway. Pirate Cove has a good depth of water, is free from sunken rocks and shoals on all sides, and also affords an excellent site for wharfs and docks sheltered from the regular current of running ice through the strait in winter, and further, has almost unlimited space for the further extension of terminal facilities which seem to he so much required in the near future.

I have not any opinion about the subject-matter of the petitioin, but as it is dealing with a turntable, I thought I would read it.

There lias been quite an agitation down there regarding the point where we make our crossing, not only at Pirate Harbour, which is further out to sea, but the same controversy has arisen both north and south of the present point of crossing. Both on the island and on the main line, we have had many pressing invitations to select our terminus at various points. After having studied the situation fully and had our officers examine it, we have been forced to the conclusion that there was nothing to 'be gained by making any change in the

Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).

crossing point, either on the island of Cape Bireton or on the mainland, and we have about decided to remain where we are. There are some advantages, perhaps, at Pirate Harbour, but on the whole we have been led to the conclusion that we had better stay where we are.

Mr. MCLENNAN.

Have sea captains given their opinion about this matter?

I think we have been favoured with the opinions of almost everybody in that locality.

Mr. McLENNAN.

Several letters from sea captains that I have received point out one difficulty, that is, that a large steamer 280 feet long going across from Mulgrave to Point Tupper, with a current running four or five miles an hour, and sometimes ice running with it, forcing it broadside, would have great difficulty to make so sharp a point as Point Tupper for the terminus. Even the present comparatively small ferry boat has to be driven full steam in order to make that dock on the Point Tupper side of the Strait of Canso, thus subjecting both boat and wharf to damage, which they often sustain in this way. If there is a difficulty in docking a small steamer, there will necessarily be a much greater difficulty in docking this large steamer that it is proposed to put on that ferry. I would, therefore, suggest to the hon. minister that it might be prudent to experiment upon docking the new boat at Point Tupper before any great expenditure is made upon it as a permanent dock. I have five or six letters in my possession from sea captains who have navigated the Straits of Canso from boyhood to the present day. Men who have been in charge of almost all the steamers that ply around the Strait of Canso, and they are a unit in the opinion that it would be most difficult to dock a large boat at such a place as Point Tupper. I have already said that if the present small boat which plies on the ferry is not run at full speed to' avoid the ice and fight the current that is tending to bring her down stream she will fail to make her dock at that very narrow point and she will then be very likely to go on the ledge of rock on either side of the point. They, therefore, unanimously have answered several questions put to them by the town council of Hawkesbury as to whether the point called Grant's Point at the northern entrance of Hawkesbury harbour would uot toe a safer point at which to dock a large steamer. Their answers are unanimous that Grant's Point would be the safer of the two at which to dock a large steamer. Many railway men are also of the opinion that the government would lose no money upon all the works they have now established at Point Tupper. The round-house and all the paraphernalia for the Cape Breton terminus established there would not be lost money

In view of the fact that cars for repairs can he driven in there as a sort of yard just as they now are, while the dock would be in a safe, roomy place at the entrance of Hawkesbury harbour, one of the finest harbours in eastern Nova Scotia outside of Sydney and Halifax. As proof of its safety 1 may say that vessels frequenting the Straits of Canso in storms always make for that harbour. The government steamers always make for that harbour when they are on the coast of Cape Breton or of eastern Nova Scotia. When there is so much unanimity amongst men who are thoroughly versed in the navigation of the Strait of Canso. who are thoroughly posted on the currents and movements of the ice, where there is such unanimity as to the choice of Grant's Point as a point of landing for the ferry steamers, particularly as large a steamer as the proposed one, I think the hon. minister should hesitate a little and experiment upon the docking of that new boat on the Cape Breton side before a permanent dock is established. There is a vast sum of money about to be voted by parliament to establish a terminus on the Cape Breton side of the Strait of Canso. It happens that Port Hawkesbury is on the Inverness side of the line of demarcation between Richmond and Inverness, but that does not make any difference for me as to the point I suggest. If there is a safe point, even to the south of Point Tupper, it would not matter to me. If these sea captains had chosen such a point I would not have one word to say, but I consider it my duty, as representing a portion of the people of the Island of Cape Breton, which has a good deal to do with the road, to lay before the committee, and particularly before the Department of Railways and Canals, the opinions of all these sea-faring men, who are perfectly conversant with the navigation of the Strait of Canso.

I am quite prepared to admit that my hon. friend (Mr. McLennan) has no interest in presenting this view as he does, other than what he thinks would be in the public interest and for the advantage of the service. Therefore, what he has said, I am quite prepared to believe he is well convinced, is correct, but, at the same time ,T am bound to think there is not the entire unanimity among sea-faring men that my hon. friend apprehends.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

I may say to my hon. friend the Minister of Railways, that when the value of the land was being fixed in the Exchequer Court by expropriation proceedings, there was a remarkable unanimity of opinion among a very large number of people around there that Point Tupper was the only possible place.

Mr. MATHESON.

Mr. Chairman. I wish to say a few words on this question. We 131

have heard a good deal from my hon. and worthy friend from Inverness (Mr. McLennan). He has, however, only given the opinion of Port Hawkesbury. but it is well known that Port Hawkesbury has been for a number of years urging for railway accommodation. I think every person who knows the Strait of Canso will admit that the place at which to establish the dock, is not where it is narrow, but that it would be wise to go down where there is more room. The ice in the Strait of Canso must spread to make room for the steamer to pass through. The hon. gentleman says there is no place south of Tupper Point available.

Mr. MCLENNAN.

I did not say that.

Mr. MATHESON.

I think you did ; however, I am in the judgment of the committee. If I understood the hon. gentleman correctly he said there was a ledge of rock on each side of Tupper Point. However, we have not so many railway facilities in the county of Richmond that we can afford to lose what we have. It must be conceded by all that we have better harbours south of Point Tupper than can be found north of it. That is patent to all. It is true that there are lots of people from Port Hawkesbury who would try to get the steamer to go to that point, but, as I said before, to get clear of the ice, you must go to the south. I am well acquainted with the Strait of Canso. I have crossed the Strait of Canso many times since I was a little boy. I know every part of it. My life has been endangered several times and I have always known where to go to seek refuge, and to seek refuge I had to go south.

Mr. McLENNAN.

You had better keep clear of Point Tupper.

Mr. MATHESON.

Point Tupper is bad enough.

To provide new superstructure for six spans Miramichi bridge, $72,000.

Mr. MONK.

Would the hon. minister give us some explanation about this ?

The Miramichi, in company with all the other bridges along the line, has to be strengthened. We are happily situated here because we can turn these bridges to very good account and we propose to put them up on the Hillsboro' line in crossing at Charlottetown. We propose to make a division as between the Intercolonial Railway on the one hand and the Prince-Edward Island Railway on the other upon this basis. We estimate the cost of six new heavy spans of 200 feet each at $132,000. We value the old spans which we take out iat $60,000 and we put these old spans on the Hillsboro' bridge in Prince Edward Island.

Mr. HACKETT.

How old are these

spans ?