1. Mr. P. W. Gliddon was the contractor for the railway station mail service at Woodstock, N.B., during the year ended 31st December, 1900.

2. This service did not include the collecting of mail matter from the street boxes.

3. Mr. Thomas Baker is the contractor for the railway station mail service, and Mr. C. D. Johnston is the contractor for the letter collecting service.

4. $165 a year for the former service, and $104 a year for the latter 'service.

5. These prices were fixed by tender in 1896.

I practically answered that question yesterday. Yes is the answer to all three questions. I was fortunately able to intercept Col. Anderson, and he has gone down to the inquiry to-day.

That the House resolve itself into committee on the following resolution :

That it is expedient to provide that pensions or gratuities may be granted to staff officers and officers and men of the permanent militia force, and to the widows and children of such officers, as follows :-

To an officer compulsorily retired, for any cause other than misconduct or inefficiency, after twenty years' service, or retiring voluntarily after thirty-five years' service, a pension not exceeding one-fiftieth of the pay and allowances of his rank or appointment at the time of his retirement for each year of service; service beyond thirty-five years not being reckoned.

To an officer who retires voluntarily after twenty-five years, but less than thirty-five years' service, a pension 20 per cent less than is above provided for.

Towards making good the said pensions, 5 per cent to be deducted from the pay of officers.

To an officer retiring on account of infirmity, or reltlred ito promote efficiency or economy in the service, a gratuity not exceeding one month's pay for each year's service; if retiring on account of injury received in the discharge of his duties, a gratuity not exceeding three months' pay for every two years' service. b To a non-commissioned officer or militiaman, if he has served fifteen but less than twenty-one years, a pension equal to one-fiftieth of his annual pay for every year of service; for twenty-one and less than twenty-five years service, twenty-fiftieths, and in addition two-fiftieths for every year over twenty; for twenty-five years, thirty-fiftieths, and in addition one-fiftieth for every year over twenty-five ; not exceeding, however, two-thirds of his average annual pay exclusive of extra pay or allowances

Mr. SUTHERLAND (Oxford).

during the three years preceding his retirement. , _ .

To the widow and children of an officer who had served twenty years and was at the time of his death on full pay or in receipt of pension, the following pension or allowance : in the ease of a colonel, $500 to the widow and $80 to each child; lieutenant-colonel, a pension of $450 to a widow and a yearly allowance of $80 to each child; major, $350 to widow and $70 to each child; captain, $250 to widow and $o5 to each child; lieutenant or second lieutenant, $200 to widow and $50 to each child; warrant officer, $100 to widow and $25 to each child ; the amount to children to be doubled if tbey are motherless and in need; no allowance to be granted to a son aged eighteen or a daughter aged twenty-one; and the total amount granted to the family of an officer in one year not to exceed the amount of the pension attached to his rank.

He said : Mr. Speaker, perhaps it would be more convenient to make the explanation in reference to this resolution before going into committee, and I will, therefore, detain the House a few minutes while I do so. The resolution proposes, for the first time in Canada, to adopt the principle of pensions for the permanent force of this country. Let me, at the outset, explain that the resolution, or the Act to be founded upon it, only applies to the permanent force and to the permanent staff, not to the active militia in the ordinary sense of the word. I make this statement as I think there has been some misapprehension abroad with reference to it. I do not think, in view of what appeared to be the general feeling of the House, evinced on a recent occasion, when a similar discussion was brought up by my hon. friend from Victoria, B.C. (Hon. Mr. Prior), that there is any need of my delaying the House to argue as to the advisability, the necessity and justice of adopting the pension system for our permanent corps. I may, however, say, in passing, that in every country, as far as I know, which has men permanently employed in the defence of the country, there is a pension system, and although we are only adopting it very late in the day, I believe it is a sound principle, which the country at large will approve.

Hon. Mr. PRIOR.

Hear, hear.

There are special reasons, too, why, I think, the pension system should be adopted for our permanent force which are stronger even than in the case of ordinary soldiers. As I have frequently pointed out to the House, the permanent force of Canada is not simply a force organized as a nucleus to the army for defensive purposes. but is the educating force, it is the military school which supplies the teaching of the active militia of the country, and, therefore, while it is important- that we should have in the permanent force the very best class of men which can be obtained, it is important, having secured them, that

we should retain them. One of our difficulties has been to retain good men ; the very great difficulty which affects the non-commissioned officers and men is that they are poorly paid, and not taken care of when they get old, and, therefore, they are not inclined to remain except temporarily in the force. It is of the utmost importance, in order that this force should fully carry out what is expected of it, that permanency should he one of its characteristics. Now we come to the provisions contained in the resolution itself. It is divided, I may say, into two parts, and, first, I will refer to that part of the Bill which I am to introduce which provides for a pension to the non-commissioned [DOT]officers and men. I may say, in regard to this, that we have simply adopted the pension law of the North-west mounted police, which has been in operation since, I think, the year 1889. As indicating what the charge will be upon the country resulting from the adoption of this law, I may say that the North-west Mounted Police Pension Act. although enacted in 18S9, has practically been in force for twenty-eight years, namely, from the date at which the police force was organized, and at this moment the only charge entailed upon the country as a result of the operation of that pension law is the sum of $1,800 a year. The police force has numbered during most of these years about as many ns the permanent force ; somewhere about 1,000- sometimes below, and, I think, sometimes above that number-and, as I say, the only charge in which the country is involved as a result of the operation of the North-west Mounted Police Pension Act is to-day only $1,800 a year.

Mr. SPROTJLE.

Do we take a percentage from their pay ?

No. I may explain that under this Bill it is not intended to take any percentage from the pay of the non-commissioned officers and men. There is no deduction from the pay of the North-west mounted police, and the pay of these soldiers is so small that I think it would not be fair to ask privates and non-commissioned officers to contribute in that way. Now, it has seemed to me that there could be no possible reason which moved parliament to grant a pension to the North-west mounted police force, which does not apply equally to the permanent force of this country. That being the case, if there were no stronger reasons, it seems to me that it is a simple act of justice to apply the same law to the permanent force as has been applied to the North-west mounted police. I have just pointed out that our doing so will entail upon the country only a very moderate expense indeed. In this connection, I will repeat what I said a moment ago : That it is important to the success of

the work of the permanent force, that there should be permanency. We have got to do one thing or the other; we have either got to give these men much larger pay than they receive now, or else we must do without good men. I think it would be better to give this pension rather than increase the pay. The men who have served for many years become old, and have found it absolutely impossible, because of the low pay they'received to save anything, so that they are turned out on the world late in life to earn their living without anything in hand. The Militia Department is asked every year to give employment to some of these men, and that we do as well as we can, but how much better it would be to provide a pension by which, when these men have served their full term, they will be able to have something to live upon during the declining years of their life. I may point out in this connection that they must serve twenty years before they are entitled to a pension, or if through any disability they are unable to serve twenty years, then after fifteen years they will receive a pension. The pension is one-fiftieth of their pay for every year they have served up to two-thirds of their total pay ; that is the maximum they can receive under this law.

Now, Mr. Speaker, with reference to the other branch of this resolution which refers to officers, I desire to make this explanation. It has been said that this would involve a very serious charge upon the treasury. I am able to say that this is absolutely not the case. There will be no increased charge upon the treasury whatever, and I will point out how. At the present moment under the existing law, or under the existing order in council by which officers are retired from the service, any officer who has reached the age limit or is obliged to retire for other cause, receives on retirement, one-tenth of his pay for every year that he has served. To illustrate, suppose an officer has served twenty years, and suppose his pay was $2,000 a year, on retirement that officer would receive a gratuity equal to two years pay which would be $4,000. Without any desire to reflect upon the prudence of officers, I am bound to say that the experience of the department in reference to this method of treating them has been very unfortunate. We have had cases where officers have retired and have drawn large sums of money-some as high as $7,000 or $8,000-but from the very fact of their having lived for years without any experience in business, they have not been able to make the best use of the gratuity paid them. We find them coming back after a few years, perhaps after a few months, asking the Department of Militia, and asking the government to give them something to do, because they are again absolutely without means. I will not refer to anv cases by name, but I may say that

there are painful cases of this kind where officers who have commanded districts in this country are to-day asking us to give

them, and are glad to get SI.25 a day to keep body and soul together, by taking care of a drill hall or doing some menial service of that kind. Now, that is not creditable to the country.

I propose then that this money which we have been paying under the order in council shall still be paid, but that it shall be paid in the form of an annuity. In other words, with that 10 per cent, for each year that the officer has served, instead of a gratuity, we shall buy for that officer an annuity. Well, Mr. Speaker, this would not be sufficient, and so I have decided to ask the officers themselves to contribute over and above this amount, a sufficient sum to give them a respectable retiring annuity. I may say that the amount which I am changing into the form of an annuity; the amount which we have been in the habit of giving for many years past would be enough to purchase one-half of a sufficient annuity. I have, after consulting on the matter with the superintendent of insurance, ascertained that a tax of 5 per cent upon the pay of the officers, added to that which they are already entitled to. and put into the consolidated fund, would at the rate of 34 per cent-I may say that the interest lias been computed at that low rate in all these calculations-at the rate of 3| per cent it would secure for these officers the pension which is mentioned in the resolution, and which I intend to incorporate in the Bill. I think,

then. I have demonstrated that the proposal which I bring before the House, so far as the officers are concerned, does not involve an additional dollar of expense or taxation on the people of this country ; and therefore, although I would have been prepared to go further, I think no one in this House can object to the proposal.

The Bill which I intend to found on these resolutions has been drawn from several sources. The old Civil Service Superannuation Act has been used as a basis for that portion of the Bill which applies to tlie officers. I have already explained that that portion which applies to non-commissioned officers and men is a literal copy of the North-west Mounted Police Pension Act, which has been in force since 1889. That portion which applies to officers' wives and children is taken from the Royal Warrant for pay. The rate which we ask the officers to contribute, namely, 5 per cent, is a large rate, much larger than the civil service were asked to contribute under the old Civil1 Service Superannuation Act. But we had in view the fact that we intended to give not only officers but officers' wives the benefit of this law. and we felt that the officers, in view of that fact, would be willing to contribute the o per cent which we ask of them.

Mr. BORDEN (King's).

In conclusion, I have only to repeat what I said in opening, that I am confident that we are only dioing a simple act of justice, which ought to have been done long ago, and at the same time we are taking the very best means we could possibly take to ensure to this country a vast improvement in our permanent force; and. the money which we shall expend in this way will be trifling compared with the immense advantage to the country, because it will result in greater advantage from the expenditure which we are making annually not only on the permanent force, but on the active militia of the country. I have much pleasure in moving the House into committee on the resolution.

Mr. WALLACE.

So far as the proposals go, I think they will meet with the very j cordial approval of the members of this ! House. I would like, however, to call the minister's attention to the fact that as the resolutions read, they do not provide for those officers who have been retired-men who have been brigade majors, or who have occupied other high positions in the | service, and have been retired by the gov-| eminent when they have reached the age limit of sixty years or for some other reason. I would like to know whether the ; minister proposes in any way to provide for them.

The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND DE-[ FENCE. Those officers come under the I class to which I referred as having already j received the gratuity ; and, unless we make some special provision for them, they could | not be very well included, because they are | no longer in either of the classes referred ! to in the resolution, and have already been Paid the money to which they were entitled under the system which has been in force for a great many years.

Mr. WALLACE.

Even so, the minister knows very well-because he has just told us that the gratuity they received has long since been spent, and that these men are to-day in necessitous circumstances; and I think it would be a reflection on this country if these men, who have devoted the best years of their lives to the service of their country at a small remuneration, were left in that position. I am told that there are about a dozen officers who would be thus included in the list. They have an equally strong claim with those "whom the minister proposes to provide for, and I would ask him to consider carefully their case. I do not suggest that the pension be made retroactive, because the gratuity which they receive, we will say. will do them up to the present time, but that it be made to date from the present time. I think the government could do no more meritorious act than to include these men in the prolusion they are making.

Hou. Mr. PRIOR.

Mr. Speaker, I may be allowed one or two words in reply to the hon. minister, in order to congratulate him on at last having brought down this most meritorious measure. I suppose that when the Bill comes before the House we shall have a better chance of discussing- the different clauses in it; but I would like to draw the hon. minister's attention to one or two matters. He has informed the House that it is not intended that the non-commissioned officers and men of the permanent corps should be called upon to contribute to any superannuation fund. I would ask him whether the officers of the Northwest mounted police pay anytning to the fund ?

The officers of the North-west mounted police are urder the Civil Service Superannuation Act.

Hon. Mr. PRIOR.

What percentage do they pay ?