RUSSELL (Hants) moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 108) to amend the Criminal Code, 1892. He said : The Bill

makes some amendments in the law in regard to cases stated by magistrates, by way of appeal from summary convictions and orders. It seems that at present the statute is not effective. Amongst other things it provides that rules of court be made by judges to regulate procedure, but it says nothing as to what is to be done in the event of there being no rules of court, which has occurred in our province, and may occur in other provinces. This Bill adopts the English procedure in that matter. There are other matters of procedure which it is proposed to simplify in relation to cases stated by way of appeal from summary convictions.

Hon. Mr. BORDEN (King's).

That the name of Mr. George Loy be added to the following standing committees : Private Bills, Printing, Public Accounts and Agriculture.

I suppose it will be proper for me to give an explanation in brief form of tbe considerable items of increase which are here. Tbe Item as you will see is considerably increased over the corresponding item last year, which was $188,600. I may say* that while there is some increase in a number of the branches of this department, the chief increase here is due to an undertaking which we have decided upon on behalf of the cheese industry in Canada. Last season's cheese trade was not quite so satisfactory as the cheese trade of Canada has been for many years past and the causes of this have become quite apparent not only to the Department of Agriculture but to those who are engaged in the trade. It appears evident that the demand in England has been for a slightly different character of cheese from that which Canada has been supplying in the past and that to meet that demand our people have been endeavouring to make a softer and moister cheese, sending it forward under the old conditions. These old conditions were quite satisfactory for the harder and dryer cheese which Canada has been supplying in such large quantities for many years, but are not suitable for the character of tbe cheese now demanded by the English market and which our people have been trying to send forward. That quality of cheese requires that it should be cured and handled in a cooler temperature. A great deal of tbe injury that has been done during tbe last season or two has been done in the curing rooms of the factories. It is well known that these curing rooms are not very thoroughly constructed as a general rule and that tbe heat is not under control, especially in the hot weather of summer. A series of experiments has been carried on for some years back by my department. Another series has been carried on by tbe Guelph Agricultural College and still another series with most important results in the state of New York. The results of these experi-

ments have all tended in one direction, [DOT]wonderfully coinciding one with the other, and proving conclusively that this moister and softer cheese which is to-day in demand in the English market must be kept at a temperature below 65 degrees if it is to be successfully made and handled. The question came up : How will you bring about a change of methods to accomplish this object ? My department has been for two years inculcating the necessity for this change, pointing out the results of the experiments that have been made and urging people in every way possible, by addresses at public meetings and by bulletins and reports, to improve their curing rooms so that they might be able to cure their cheese under the new conditions properly. I think, largely due to the fact that the year before last the general price of the article was pretty good notwithstanding the difficulties. the people have disregarded these warnings. During the last season, however. they got a rather severe castigation, if X may call it that, in the English market. We had report after report showing that Canadian cheese was not doing as well as it had been doing in the past, that it was arriving very deficient in the proper quality and that the price of our cheese was not as good in proportion to the price of other cheese in the English market as it had been in the past. The result was the farmers and cheese makers of Canada lost in the last season somewhere about $2,000,000 on the quality of their cheese alone. I venture to think that if the advice of the Department of Agriculture, which was given to them two years ago, had been followed that money would have been saved. No doubt a portion of it would have had to have been spent in the improvements which were required, but still, a very large amount would have been left in the pockets of the people more than they received. In investigating this question the proposition has been made that as it was pretty difficult for the people to improve their curing rooms all over the country in every individual factory, central curing rooms should be established to which the cheese of a group of factories would be brought, thus carrying out the principle of co-operative dairying a little step farther than it has been carried in the past. Just as in days gone by the milk which used to be made into cheese in the home dairy has been carried to the central factory for the purpose of making it into cheese, so, the cheese, after being made, will be carried to a centra] curing room to be cured. It is felt that some other improvements in connection with the business might be also tried and shown and that the result would be, not only on the point I have just elaborated, beneficial, but on several other points, also, improvements in the trade would be brought about. These propositions were laid before the great dairy conventions of the country during last fall and winter and

were approved by these dairy conventions. The question was : How could this change be brought about ? It means generally through the country a very considerable investment in what up to the present time is an experiment-an experiment which has borne the test of careful Analysis and investigation on the part of experts, and having been laid before those engaged in the business, has met with their approval, but still, is a thing which has never been tried anywhere else or in Canada either. We have been in the habit, in my department, of doing work of an experimental character for the benefit of the people concerned, but which no individual would be willing to undertake, and which no individual, or group of individuals, could fairly be called upon to undertake. The risk, in other words, of the results of an experiment of this kind should be undertaken by the government and paid for out of public funds rather than by individuals. I, therefore, propose to establish four such curing rooms, one in the western part of Ontario, one in the eastern part of Ontario, one in the French-speaking part of the province of Quebec and one in the English-speaking part of the province of Quebec. Some exception has been taken to the fact that only four of these curing rooms are going to be carried on. Being of an experimental character I think it is desirable that enough should be done to show that if this experiment is successful it can be fairly held to be true under different conditions and under different circumstances, while at the same time, 1 think it is wise in an experiment of this kind not to build any more than is absolutely necessary to prove the results. The conditions in the particular localities that are indicated are sufficiently diverse to be fairly representative of the conditions in Canada, and the scale on which it is proposed to carry on these experiments will be sufficiently great, I think, that if it is successful in

these places it will be held to be successful almost anywhere in Canada. At the same time I feel that the investment of public money in this way is warranted by the magnitude of the interests involved. I need not dwell on the importance of our cheese industry. We know that in some years as much as $20,000,000 worth of cheese has been exported from Canada, and that has been of great value not only to the farmers but to the industrial development of the industries of Canada generally. It is the one industry in which Canada has maintained a pre-eminence, and anything that tends to make this industry a continued success is worthy of attention. In doing this work we will require a capital investment of about $8,000 or $10,000 for each of these curing rooms, and we will require money for maintenance during the current year, which for the four curing rooms will amount in all to $35,000 or $30,000. I trust that the maintenance will not

be a serious drain upon tlie department. Our experiments show that the cheese cured in the cool temperature which we propose to provide will not only be of better quality and consequently bring a higher price, but there will also be very materially less shrinkage in the curing process. While we have not absolutely decided upon all the details, our proposition is that the owners of the cheese will reap all the advantage of the increased price per pound, but that the gain made by the less shrinkage shall go to.the maintenance of the curing room. I think that will pay for all the expenses of the curing room in a commercial sense. But we expect to make some other experiments and to do some other work for the benefit of the cheese trade, and I do not think that the expense of this will lie covered by the sum I have mentioned. In this estimate we are providing for not only the capital expenditure in building the curing rooms, but also for a sum to help in the management of them for rne current year. This involves altogether nearly $40,000, or a very considerable amount more than the increase which is to be noticed in this item.

In other ways the expenditure will be largely on the same lines as in the past. There will be some increases and some slight decreases. The general lines of the work are briefly these. We have the headquarters staff and expenses at Ottawa; we have the extension of markets division ; the cold storage division ; the live , stock commissioners' division; the dairy division and the fruit division; all under the general direction of Professor Robertson, the commissioner of dairying and agriculture.

Mr. CLANCY.

The committee will be anxious to know from the minister, as he has no doubt thought it out well, how the cheese is to be brought to the curing stations ?

The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, I wish first to give a general sketch of the work included under this vote, and then I will be pleased to answer any questions afterwards. As I have said, we have the extension of markets division, which covers generally the work for the improvement of our products and of the handling of our products between here and the foreign markets. It includes the watching of the loading and of the unloading of vessels on this side of the Atlantic, and on .arrival in the old country. It includes the work we have been doing to improve the poultry trade in Canada, and also our efforts to improve the quality of the grain and seed which is used by our farmers. In a general way, that is what is embraced in that particular division. We have for this purpose several men in Montreal watching the loading of ships with our Canadian products, and giving us information which we are constantly laying before the different transportation companies, urging upon them Hon. Mr. FISHER.

improvement in their methods. We have men also engaged in St. John and Halifax during the winter season. We have also men in the old country watching the landing of our products there, and when time permits, watching the markets and giving information as to the condition of our products when they arrive in these markets. The advice which is given by the handlers in Great Britain is of great importance in the improvement of the packing and management of our products, and it is reported by these gentlemen.

We have also been introducing iuto this country within the last few years, entirely new methods of dealing with poultry meat. Until comparatively recently in Canada, hardly any one thought of fattening the chickens which they sent to the market. The result was, that Canadian poultry while good in quality, was generally not up to the mark in condition when put on the home market, or the British market. Some years ago, Professor Robertson and myself when in Great Britain came in contact with what was being done there. We found that a most extensive business was being done in the fattening of poultry and we found that these fattened poultry brought a very much higher price than the ordinary birds. We knew that our Canadian poultry was being sent to England in the ordinary condition, and we did not see why the advantages of this improved fattening process should not be obtained for the Canadian 1 manufacturers. We set to work to experiment with regard to this system in Canada. We established some stations where birds were fattened and sent to England. The results were extremely satisfactory ; so satisfactory that we were able to induce people to go into the business. The progress has not been very rapid, but it has been very considerable. As will be seen by the trade returns, the poultry meat exported to Great Britain has increased from something under $20,000 four years ago, to something over $200,000 last' year. In addition to that increase in the trade, I may say that there has been an immense stimulus given to the feeding of poultry for the home market, and to-day the men who handle poultry in centres like Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa are prepared to take all the fattened poultry they can get at remunerative prices, and the only complaint they have made to us is that they cannot get enough to fill their orders. This stimulus has been given by the department during the last three or four years ; and while it was originally intended for the export trade which was rendered possible by the introduction of mechanical cold storage in the steamers crossing the Atlantic, it has extended to the home market in a way which we hardly anticipated when we began it. We have been trying experiments in this line, the details of which I have in my hand and could give. They have all been published in the evidence given before the

Committee, on Agriculture and in the annual report of my department.

The next branch is what I call the cold storage division, which now involves two distinct branches. When we first discussed cold storage in this country and introduced it in its improved form, of mechanical cold storage, we wanted to provide comparatively small cold chambers on the vessels for the purpose of carrying across the Atlantic . certain perishable products which otherwise could not be carried at all and be kept in proper condition. This was chiefly necessary for butter, which up to that time had never been landed in the British market in the condition in which it had left the creamery or the producer in Canada. For some time past, practically all the butter that has gone from Canada-and the export of butter has increased from about $1,000,000 in 1896 to $5,000,000 in 1901- has gone in these cold storage chambers in a frozen condition, and is laid down in the English market in practically the same condition that it leaves the creamery in Canada. That is possible by reason, first of all, of the introduction of cold storage refrigerators at the creameries, which we have stimulated by giving a bonus.

Mr. CLANCY.

The. bonus, I understand, applies also to the cooling rooms for cheese making.

No, it is only given to factories which make, butter in the summer. We have not given any bonus for cooling chambers in cheese factories. There are a large number of factories in Canada, which sometimes make butter in summer, as well as cheese, and if they do that we have allowed the bonus to them, the condition being that they must retain the refrigerator room at a certain temperature to become entitled to the bonus. At the present time I think over three-fourths of the factories in Canada fulfil these conditions. Then, cold storage is provided in iced refrigerator cars, numbers of which leave all parts of the country and converge at the ports. At the ports private enterprise hasi almost entirely fulfilled the necessity of providing cold storage accommodation, for the holding of those perishable products which the owners wish to be held. If they are to be transferred direct to the steamer from the cars, our officers watch that transference to see that no damage is done and that the goods are properly handled. If they are not properly handled, reports are immediately made, and complaints are sent to the transportation companies, and the owners are notified. On the steamers there has been for some years back full accommodation for all the product going forward which requires mechanical cold storage on the steamers. Occasionally instances may have arisen where a particular shipment was destined for some

port to which there was no regular line of steamers. I believe that in one or two instances a particular steamer at a particular time was full, and the goods had to wait for a few days or a week for another steamer; but in a general way in the last year or two there has been sufficient of this mechanical refrigeration on the vessels going from Canada to meet the demands of trade.

Now, I want to allude to another kind of what I may call cold storage, although it is different in its essence from this; that is, the principle of cooling the ordinary holds of vessels where certain goods are stored for transport. As a general rule during the shipping season of apples and the big shipping season of cheese, the owners and shippers do not care to pay the extra charges for the cold storage chambers proper, and moreover there are such large quantities of apples going forward for a few mouths in the fall of the year that it would be practically impossible for the steamers to provide mechanical cold storage for all that freight. Many of the shippers also believe-and I am not prepared to deny it-that it is not at all necessary for cheese or apples to be carried in these cold storage insulated chambers which are cooled by mechanical refrigeration. Under these'- circumstances they send their cheese and apples forward in the ordinary holds of the vessels; and when tne holds are battened down and shut up tight, without any complete system of ventilation, there is no doubt that there has been serious injury to our apples and our cheese going forward in days gone by. We have urged the steamship companies to obviate that difficulty. We have represented to them that it 'was necessary to put in not'only the ordinary ventilating shafts, but fans, so that a mechanical generation of a current of air through the holds would be obtained; and furthermore we have in the last year believed and inculcated that for this purpose there ought to be a mechanical refrigerating plant on the vessels, with a chamber where the air couldi be artificially cooled down to a low temperature, and that air forced through the holds of the vessels where the cheese and apples are stored. The plan of putting in fans and simply ventilating with the air at the ordinary temperature has been pretty successfully initiated and carried out. The other plan of a refrigerating chamber where the air would be cooled to a very low temperature and forced through has only J*en begun in the past season. We were alilfe to induce companies to put four ships under that arrangement last season, and we have received the most convincing evidence from the shippers, the receivers in the old land and the owners of those ships, that, for the carriage of our cheese and apples, that system is most eminently satisfactory. I- may : say that, with the single exception of the

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newly subsidized line from Bristol to the West Indies, the ships we have been dealing with are the only ones I know of in the world fitted up in that way. This system, I am glad to say, will be very largely extended this season now opening. We have been negotiating with other vessel owners, and I am in a position to state that this coming season there will ibe at least ten more vessels fitted up in this way for trading in the St. Lawrence.

Mr. SPROULE.

What is the difference between freight rates on goods shipped on those vessels and those shipped on other vessels.

I shall tell the hon. gentleman in a * few minutes. From the experience we had last year, I am satisfied that this system will be the ultimate one adopted by all the ships coming to Canada which expect to carry large quantites of cheese or fruit. We havp had to do the same kind of thing that we did in the case of the original cold storage scheme, namely, bear a share of the cost-of fitting the vessels up, and make a similar contract. The experiment I am happy to say, has justified our expectations. By the contracts we then made with the shipowners to fit up their ships with this apparatus, we agreed to pay half the cost of fitting up, on the understanding that the cost should extend over, in the first case, three years, and in the second, two years ; and the results have justified our expectations that the ships would continue with that apparatus after the contract had expired. To-day a large number of the vessels now leaving Canadian ports and not subsidized at all by the government, are fitted up in that way, and when any new ship is being built for the St. Lawrence trade, it is well understood that it is necessary it should be fitted up with this cold storage system. Gratifying as has been the success of the work we have undertaken I am satisfied that when we have got the other system I have been describing, thoroughly into working order, similar results will follow, and that in the near future every steamer which expects to carry our apples and cheese across the Atlantic will be fitted up with this arrangement.

I shall not go into details just now on the particular expenditure in that line, although it is somewhat larger than last year. [DOT]

With regard to the railways, the system has been constantly extended. We have today a larger! number of lines fitted up with this system than we had any year before, and are occasionally receiving requests to have more put on, which we immediately act upon.

I hope this year to have an additional officer, whose duty it will be to watch more 1 closely the carriage by these railways of i our cold storage products. That work is c Hon. Mr. FISHER.

5 now being done by an officer stationed in ' Montreal, to which these lines nearly all 5 converge. He there watches carefully the ' arrivals, makes note of the shipments re-' ceived, the condition in which they arrive, 5 and the temperature maintained. His obser-; nations show that the work, on the whole, 5 has been satisfactorily done, but we have 1 complaints occasionally, especially at points * where the cars stop on their way to Montreal, and where there are converging lines , coming together, and I think it would con'

I have a statement here with regard to the creameries. I find that there are, roughly speaking, in the neighbourhood of TOO creameries in Canada, and that up to the present about 500 have been fitted, leaving in the neighbourhood of 200 which have not yet complied with the conditions , and got the bonus.

Mr. CLANCY.

What is the exact number in each province ?

I have not the number in each province, but in the whole Dominion. The great bulk of those which have taken advantage of the arrangement are in Ontario and Quebec, and but few elsewhere. There are some in the maritime provinces and possibly one or two in British Columbia. I do not think that there are any in Manitoba. From the 31st March, 1902 to the 31st March, 1903, we anticipate that 100 creameries will get the first year's bonus and the second year's bonus and about 80 will get the third year's. During this current year from 31st March, 1901 to 31st March, 1902-this statement was made out in February a few weeks ago-there were 80 creameries that got the first year's bonus of $50 each and 80 that got the second year's bonus, and about 100 that got the third year's bonus. The bonus is $50 the first year and $25 each second and third year.

Mr. CLANCY.

Can the hon. gentleman tell the committee how much butter, made in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, was exported in this way.

I have not the figures here, and I do not know even that we have the figures available in the department, showing how much of the export comes from these two provinces. In the Trade and Navigation Returns, we have the export from the several ports, but then it must be remembered that the great bulk of the products from Montreal and westward and even from Quebec and westward, are exported from the port of Montreal, and the Trade and Navigation

Returns do not indicate the province or origin of the goods. But I may say, in general terms, that, of the butter exported from Montreal nearly all goes from the provinces of Ontario and Quebec. Last year there was a little of North-west and Manitoba butter exported from Montreal. For a year or two there was scarcely any export of this kind, the great bulk of the western butter going to British Columbia and the Yukon and some little to Japan. But, during the season just jjassed, the trade there did not absorb the whole of the territorial and Manitoba production, and some was sent to Montreal and exported to Great Britain. Of the maritime provinces butter and cheese a certain proportion sometimes comes to Montreal. That depends on so many things that it is difficult to exactly gauge it. The Montreal merchants engaged in this business handle the great bulk of this trade for the country, and they buy in the maritime provinces as well as in Quebec and Ontario. Sometimes they ship direct from Halifax and other ports, but sometimes they bring the butter and cheese to Montreal and keep them in cold storage until they are ready to ship. We do not know to what extent each province contributes, so, I fear it will be impossible to give the hon. gentleman the information in greater detail.