The government cannot make people do one thing or the other, but the government can provide facilities, and the people take advantage of them or not, as they think it is to their interest. As a- matter of fact, butter has come up again during the last calendar year of 1901, and $5,000,000 worth was exported. The hon. gentleman has not got those figures in the Trade and Navigation Returns, but they have been published in the press, and given to different dairy conventions over the country, and are well understood. During the last calendar year the cheese export has not only been reduced in price in consequence of what I explained a few minutes ago, but it has also been decreased in volume. As a matter of fact, ju the calendar year of 1901 the value of cheese exported from Canada was about $4,000,000 less than it was in 1900, speaking in round figures ; and of that $4,000,000 decrease, those who are acquainted with the trade have placed at $2,000,000 the shrinkage of quantity, and at about $2,000,000 the shrinkage in value. Now, I will speak a little about the live stock division. Here I have taken a new departure in appointing a live stock commissioner.

Mr. SPROULE.

The minister may remember that he said the other day that he had appointed a live stock commissioner on the advice of eminent agriculturists whom he had consulted by letter, and he was pleased to see that their reports were almost uni-

yersally favourable to the appointment of i the gentleman whom he had selected. : Would he have any objections to putting those letters on the Table ? <

I do not remember the exact words my hon. friend has reference to. I looked In my office, and my secretary has not been able to find the letters in regard to it. I think what I said was that I had consulted people engaged in the live stock business. If I said letters, I have not yet been able to lay my hands on any particular letters of that nature. But I have under my hand, and will read to the House, or give them to the hon. gentleman, letters in large- numbers endorsing the appointment. *1 did consult the live stock men, and I know of my own knowledge what Mr. Hodson had been doing before in Ontario, and I felt I was right in choosing him for that position. I think the event has justified the choice most amply, and I will read later on, if the hon. gentleman wishes it, some statements that have appeared over the signatures of leading live stock men, and I have resolutions of live stock associations endorsing the appointment of that gentleman, and pointing out how eminently qualified he is for that position. But aside from the appointment of a live stock commissioner, I have endeavoured to stimulate the trade and to organize what I may call the live stock interests of the country. Witli that object in view, along with the live stock commissioners who has been working now a little over 2 years, this work has been largely that of organization up to the present time. Mr. Hodson had shown his ability as an organizer in the province of Ontario. He had been for some time, I am speaking under correction of the official name, secretary of the lave Stock Association of the great province of Ontario, which is the centre of all the live stock interests of Canada, and I may even go fur-tner and say of all the live stock interests of this North American continent. Mr. Hodson had had that experience, and knowing him as I did, I believed his services would be of great value all over the Dominion. He has been travelling about a good deal, meeting with live stock men in other provinces as well as in Ontario, and trying to introduce into other provinces the same kind of work that had been so successful in Ontario. I am glad to see that the people have responded very willingly, and to-day we have live stock associations, not altogether inaugurated since he came in, but certainly stimulated and vivified, and rendered more effective in consequence of his work. The live stock associations of British Columbia, the Territories, Manitoba, and Ontario, and the breeders associations in the maritime provinces, not only have been individually and locally stimulated, but they have been brought into relations with one another, and a large inter-provincial

trade has sprung up, which live stock men say is of great value to them. Ontario is the breeding place of the live stock interests of Canada. Ontario men a few years ago, were comparatively glutted with their own production, and they had not such a good market as they desired. That market to-day has been found for them to a large extent in the west and in the east by reason of the institution of the live stock associations, as well as through the arrangements that have been made to facilitate the carriage of live stock eastwards and westwards. The people of Ontario have been able to make enormous sales of their live stock to Manitoba, the Territories, and British Columbia on the one hand, and to Quebec, the maritime provinces, and Newfoundland on the other hand. This is largely work which Mr. Hodson has been doing, that is the line he has been taking, and which has resulted in the advantages I have just mentioned.

In connection with that I may say that we have very much increased what I may call our participation as a Dominion department in the institute work of the various provinces. Besides doing this work and making experiments in various lines it is absolutely necessary that this work and these experiments should be given to the people and brought right home to them so that they may reap the benefit of them and understand them. We have done this in the past by issuing reports and bulletins which have been spread broadcast' throughout the country, but, as is well known by those who are familiar with agricultural problems and work, by personal contact, the holding of meetings, and the impressing upon the people through personal addresses the results of our investigations and experiments, the work is more interesting to the people, more likely to attract their- attention and more likely to induce them to carry on the work themselves until these same results have been obtained. Consequently, we have to a considerable extent aided hi the local institute work. In Ontario that work is so admirably organized and so complete that we have not had to do a great deal there although we have done some. It was just beginning in New Brunswick, but in Nova Scotia and Prince-Edward Island it was hardly organized at all. I am glad to say that to-day, and I venture to claim some credit for having, by advice, incitement and work, helped to bring about that result, they have pretty well completed the organization of that institute work iu Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and the same is true of Prince Edward Island. In the west a great deal has been done of this kind of work. They had a , stock-breeders' association and a horse-breeders' association in the territories. They were, however, working at a great disadvantage without any touch between them and other organizations of the kind, and they were rather disheartened, but to-day,

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they arq, encouraged, stimulated and confident and this has been very largely due to work which Mr. Hodson has been able to do in helping them, advising them, and encouraging them in their work. TJntil we went out to..British Columbia between one and two years ago, the farmers of British Columbia were hardly in touch with the farmers of the eastern part of Canada at all, but since that visit there has sprung up an enormous trade between Ontario and the far west. X will get, before I -finish this item, a short statement of the amount of stock that has been sold there. Since the 1st of January last, I think I am correct when I make the statement that the sale of $60,000 worth of stock has been arranged by the efforts of Mr. Hodson alone independently altogether of any other purchases or sales with which he had nothing to do of stock from Ontario to British Columbia and the North-west Territories. [DOT]

Mr. CLANCY.

Where was that want supplied from before V

They did not get this stock at all. Their live stock interests seemed to be almost dead and they were not pushing ahead at all, but lately they have been trying to get live stock as they have seen an opening in the markets for it. Anything that they did get in the past they got from the south of the line. There were a few odd shipments of stockers from Ontario to the North-west Territories and British Columbia until the last year and a half, but during the last year and a half there has been a constant stream, not only of pure-bred animals for breeding purposes, but of stockers which have been bought in Ontario and shipped to the west for the purpose of feeding them and then re-selling them as finished animals. That trade has sprung up, and has been the direct result of bringing into contact the people in the east with the people of the west, and which but for this would probably have gone on in the old limited way in which the trade was going on. Then Mr. Hodson has started one or two good movements which are of value to the country. He has worked in conjunction with the farmers of Ontario in the improvement and the large increase of what is known as the Eat Stock Show at Guelph. This takes place every December, and I will venture to call it the great gathering of the agricultural interests of Canada every year, especially those connected with the live stock interests. Men go there from all over the country. They have there large audiences gathered together. They have not only the exhibition and the competition of live stock in cattle, sheep, swine and poultry, but they have also addresses delivered on practical subjects, taking the animals which have been competing in the ring and pointing out their excellencies and

Hon. Mr. FISHER.

the reasons why such an animal is goochand such another animal is bad. This work has had a tremendous educative influence and it has been giving very great results from the fact that the institute workers from the province of Ontario and from the other provinces as well have been brought there and heard these addresses, have seen these animals, have mixed with one another and exchanged experiences and ideas. These men to-day are going all over the Dominion of Canada and carrying the results of what they heard at that great gathering to the people. This part of the show was organized by Mr. Hodson. For the last two years he has, with my approval and concurrence, managed practically the addresses and the gathering together of the people at this fair. In addition this winter we have organized and stimulated and worked up a similar fair at Amherst, N.S., for the benefit of the maritime provinces. We had a most successful gathering there exactly similar to the great show at Guelph, and it is an augury for the future of the live stock interests of the maritime provinces that the town of Amherst passed a by-law devoting $12,000 to the erection of buildings for the continuance of this fair, so that it is an assured thing that such a fair will be in existence in the maritime provinces in the future as that which is in existence at Guelph. Mr. Hodson has inaugurated another work which will be of the greatest benefit to the- country. That is in connection with the ordinary agricultural society exhibitions throughout the country. There has been great difficulty in regard to these exhibitions in getting competent judges, judges who were known and whose judgments would be accepted. Mr. Hodson has undertaken to help the agricultural societies to get these gentlemen. We have spent some little money in my department for this purpose. We have been able to send men who are recognized as authorities on different lines of stock. Mr. Hodson has been able to inaugurate another thing which I believe is going to be of the greatest benefit and importance, and it is the system of the judges giving to the people who are assembled to see their judgment the reasons for their judgment and explaining why it is that one animal deserves the prize and the other does not. That has been done to a certain extent last fall, and it was a remarkable success; so successful indeed that the officers of these societies have been urging on us that it should be continued. In this way, and in other ways that are contemplated. Mr. Hodson's work will render these agricultural exhibitions much more beneficial to the people.

The next division is what I might call the dairy division. It comprises the work at headquarters ; the work of running the creameries in the North-west Territories ; the work of the assistant dairy commissioner in the province of Quebec ; the grant

to the dairy school at St. Hyacinthe and to the Dairymen's Association ; the running of three creameries in Nova Scotia ; hell) to the dairy school at Sussex, New Brunswick ; and the employment of an officer to help dairying interests in the maritime provinces. It includes also the cheese curing rooms which I have already described. That takes $62,000 out of our whole grant.

The last division is the fruit division. It includes the general work at Ottawa in connection with fruit ; and the work in connection with the Fruit Marks Act which necessitated the appointment of some inspectors. It includes the experimental work, and the advice and assistance which is given in the packing of fruit, as well as to methods to secure that the fruit shall be free from spots and as fine as possible. Last season, the first season of the operation of the Fruit Marks Act, after careful consideration and consultation with those interested in the trade, we thought it best not to proceed too rigidly with the enforcement of the Act. It was an entirely new departure, and a good many people thought that the provisions of the law were extremely strict. For my own part I believe that any one who does not live up to the provisions of that Act deserves very little sympathy. At the same time the trade of the country being already well established on certain lines, a rigid enforcement might have involved consequences which it would be as well to avoid. I gave instructions to my officers to bring to the attention of those interested, the provisions of the Act and the methods in which we proposed to enforce it, so as to give them fair warning. There were doubts expressed as to the meaning of certain clauses and I consulted lawyers and got their opinions, and then tried to impress on the packers and shippers what these opinions were. 1 may say that the passage of that Act has contributed materially to an improvement in the packing of our fruit. I regret that I cannot say that last year there was not a great deal of fruit packed which was contrary to the'provisions of the Act. But, at the same time there was an effort on the part of packers and shippers to try and live up to its provisions. At first we did not undertake to impose penalties, but we found that some people were continuing in their old ways and we afterwards did impose a few penalties chiefly as a warning, and to show that the Act could be effectively enforced. We have been all the time giving information as to the nature of the Act and endeavouring to get people to comply with its provisions. Last year our inspectors have been extremely busy throughout the season doing this work. The services of these inspectors have been required for a longer period than I had expected, but I think we are in a position now to lay off one or two. An important feature of this work Is our endeavour to explain to fruit growers how they can avoid the growing of spotted and wormeaten fruit, so that next year it is hoped that our fruit will be better in quality than in the past. That will make the enforcement of the Act easier in the coming year. What is more important still, it will bring our apples up to the high reputation which Canadian apples should enjoy in the foreign market, and it will contribute much to the benefit of the trade, generally. Our inspectors did not attempt to inspect all the shipments of fruit, but they examined 33,000 barrels in Montreal up to the 1st of December last. It would be a physical impossibility for any reasonable number of inspectors to inspect all the fruit sent to Montreal, and it was not intended under the Act that this should be done. We have also had inspectors travelling around the country inspecting fruit which was not sent to the port of Montreal. We have had demands for more extensive inspection, and especially for inspection in different localities. To what extent it is possible to meet these demands I am not now prepared to say. We hope to do a good deal more of that work this season than last season, and I believe it will contribute to the improvement of the fruit sent to the home market, just as much as what we have done this year has contributed to the improvement of our fruit for the export trade.

Mr. WADE.

Is it the intention of the minister to introduce any amendments to the Act ?

I do not think any amendment is imperatively demanded at the present time. There have been one or two little hitches in the working of the Act, but we have worked these out, so that on the whole the Act is working fairly well. I thought a little of introducing a very short Bill to amend the Act in some slight particulars, but it is questionable in my mind whether up to the present time sufficient defects have been shown in it to justify amending it this session.

Mr. COCHRANE.

How many inspectors has the kon. gentleman got under this Act ?

I have had 12 inspectors for the whole Dominion during the past season.

Mr. COCHRANE.

Why is it necessary for 5 or 6 of your inspectors to appear on the scene at one place at once ?

Unless it was to discuss a question with the trade or to take hold of some particularly complicated case, I do not think it would be necessary. I am not aware of any case where that has occurred except where there was a necessity of consultation.

Mr. COCHRANE.

What complicated case could arise ? If the inspector understood his business properly, he would surely know

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whether a barrel of apples was up to the mark or not.

On some occasions we have thought it well to have more than one inspector discuss a particular case with the trade. We have one chief inspector whose business it has been rather to guide and control the work of the others, and he might at any time be called upon by one of the ordinary inspectors to decide a point which had arisen unexpectedly or .which was not covered by the instructions which had been given. If 4 or 5 met at any one particular place, I can only believe that it was in order to discuss a number of points which had been raised by the trade.

Mr. SPROULE.

How much do you pay these inspectors ?

The chief inspector gets $100 a month.

Mr. COCHRANE.

Where does he reside ?

He has been making his headquarters at Ottawa.

Mr. HENDERSON.

What are his duties ?

His duties have been, first of all, to direct generally the whole of mis work under Professor Robertson as the head of this branch. He is a lawyer by profession, and has been largely occupied in working out what I might call the legal side of the enforcement of the Act. He has also been a fruit-grower, having been raised on a fruit farm, and consequently knows a good deal about the fruit business. His name is W. A. McKinnon, and lie comes from the county of Wentworth. He is a graduate in law of Toronto University. The other inspectors work under him. One or two are more experienced than the others. Some have been appointed permanently, while others have been appointed temporarily for the months during which the fruit trade is largest. .