Mr. SPROULE.

This Is another illustration of the failure of hon. gentlemen to keep their promise that wonderful changes would be made when they came into office. They kept it for a short time until they got rid of the incumbent of the office, and thus made a vacancy, and in a little while they re-established the office for the purpose of putting in one of their own friends. It seems to me that this is one of the main objects in view at the present time.

Department of Indian Affairs-clerical and other assistance, $3,130.

There is an increase here.

There is an increase of $150 which is made up as follows : There are five clerks who

are paid out of this vote and two messengers. The statutory increases to these clerks amount to $210. There is a saving effected by the difference between the salary of Miss Garfoote, who has resigned and who was receiving $460, and the salary of the clerk who has been appointed since in her place and who gets the minimum salary of $400, thereby effecting a saving of $60. Taking $60 from $210 makes a net increase of $150.

Ontario and Quebec-relief, medical attendance and1 medicine, Quebec, $5,600.

Mr. SPROULE.

I see there is an increase in the item of relief, medical attendance and medicine for Quebec of $2,000. Wliat is the explanation of that ?

The total increase in these two amounts is $1,000, but there is in reality an increase of $2,900 in the item for relief, medical attendance and medicine in Quebec and Ontario, $2,000 in Quebec and $900 in Ontario, making $2,900. We have dropped the vote of $200 which has appeared in the estimates before to provide for the removal of Indians from Oka to the township of Gibson and we have dropped the vote of $1,700 for the repairs to the mission house at Caughnawaga. That makes $1,900 and it leaves a net increase of $1,000. I want to call the attention of the committee to the fact that in reality there is an increase of $2,900. It is for relief, medical attendance and medicine in Quebec and Ontario. As I have explained to the committee on various occasions the department of Indian Affairs has had very great difficulty in dealing with this question. They have endeavoured to keep the amount of expenditure down to the lowest possible figure,

but they have always had to come before the House and ask for a supplementary vote. The officials inform me that they have asked for this increased amount because they believe it will cover the expenditure for the year and that they will not then have to ask for a supplementary vote.

Mr. SPROULE.

But, your old item in your last estimates included the supplementary vote of last year ?

The hon. gentleman understands that we have supplementary estimates for the current year as well as for the next year and for these particular items we have found it necessary towards the end of the year to bring in a supplementary estimate for the current year. We are voting this amount for this particular year and the hon. gentleman will perceive that in the supplementary estimates to be laid on the Table there will be a supplementary amount for this year. We have now increased the main vote so as to avoid the necessity of taking a supplementary vote again.

Mr. SPROULE.

I think that is a much better principle and it enables us to understand it more easily. I understand the hon. minister to say that he has dropped out of this vote the amount which has been voted every year for the transfer of Oka Indians to Muskoka. Have they all died, or has he transferred the last one of them 1

They will not go.

Mr. SPROULE.

The hon. minister gave us no statement in regard to the Indians on the island near Cornwall with whom the department had some trouble. Is there any change in the situation ?

The difficulty which we had at St. Regis was of a very serious and trying character. When I took charge of the department I found that some of the Indians there had made up their minds to defy the authority of the department, and the first attempt that was made to enforce the authority of the department was met by a state of turbulence on the reserve which was very alarming. I do not think the difficulty would have arisen or would have continued to the extent it did, if it had not been for the fact that immediately opposite the reserve is a place where a lot of American Indians reside, and the line between them is only an imaginary one. The Canadian Indians and the American Indians passed freely backwards and forwards, and the American Indians unquestionably excited the Canadian Indians to turbulence and a disregard of the law. The House will remember that a couple of years ago we had a very serious difficulty on the reserve, and sent down the chief of the Dominion police to quell it, and

a very serious attack was made upon liim which resulted in one of the Indians being shot, and his death resulted from the wound. A number of Indians were brought to trial for this affray, and after their trial were allowed to go on suspended sentence. After consulting with the late member for Huntingdon, Mr. Scriver, a man in whose judgment I had considerable confidence, and who was well acquainted with the circumstances, and after consulting with the officers of the law of the province of Quebec in that neighbourhood, and getting all the information I could, as well as having an inspection by one of the inspectors of the department, I came to the conclusion that the ends of justice would be best served by allowing the Indians to go on suspended sentence. They were allowed to go, and for a time matters were quiet, and it was thought that the trouble was at an end. A little while afterwards signs of disturbance again manifested themselves, and I came to the conclusion that undue lenience to the Indians would rather give them the impression that the government was afraid of them, and that they could do as they pleased. The next outbreak was due to a dispute about the lease of a number of islands in the St. Lawrence. I need not trouble the committee by giving a full account of the whole matter, because it is very complicated. A number of the islands in the St. Lawrence were held under leases, which had been assented to by the Indians fifty or sixty years ago, and from time to time a number of these leases had fallen in. Some years ago the department decided that, although these leases were renewable under their strict terms, they would not allow them to be renewed, but would let the islands revert to the Indians whenever the leases fell in. After the leases of several islands had fallen in and the Indians were getting the use of the land of these islands, they conceived the idea that they could force matters, and insist on some' of the islands on which the leases had not terminated being also turned over to them. In order to bring the matter to a head, they arranged to put an Indian with his family on one of these islands, and in that way take possession of it. The department was notified of the fact by persons who had built summer cottages on the island, who were in the habit of going there in the summer, and who were afraid to go for fear of violence from the Indians. I gave the matter the best consideration I could, and came to the conclusion that anything in the nature of extreme leniency, or allowing the Indians to have their way in violating the law, would be a mistake. Consequently I determined to take hold of the matter with a firm hand. I caused the chief of police of the town of Cornwall to go there and make an examination of all the facts of the case, and under the authority of the Indian Act the Indian who was there with his family was taken off and put out of Hon. Mr. SIFTON. .

possession of the island. As soon as this was done, the Indians determined that they would put this man back again; and as often as he was removed they would put him back and put others along with him, with the object of intimidating persons who went on the island. When I ascertained this, I proceeded under the terms of the Indian Act, and had the man arrested and Put in jail for violating the order that had been made, and the Indians were notified of the fact. The result was that they gave up the fight, and since that time we have had peace, and I do not anticipate any more difficulty in connection with the matter.

Mr. TAYLOR.

The minister said that when the supplementary estimates for this year came down he would ask for an additional amount. We have these supplementary estimates before us, and in them $2,800 is asked for to pay the balance of the expenses in connection with the Indians in the province of Quebec. Last year the sum asked for was $3,600. If my hon. friend will refer to the last estimates of the late Conservative government, brought down in 1895, he will find that the amount then asked for, which included the entire service, was $3,500, included in which was an amount for seed grain, for which I do not see anything included in this vote. Why is this vote increased by $2,100 in five years ? There are no more Indians, but there are less, because some have moved away. This whole increase is for medical attendance.

The increase seems to be due to the fact that the department has taken over a certain amount of work in connection with the Indians on the lower part of the River St. Lawrence. Under the existing conditions, we have a considerable amount of expense in connection with the increased quarantine work, which has had to be undertaken by the Department of Indian Affairs. I quite understand that the expenditure in connection with this branch of the service ought to be as low as possible, and there is a continual struggle on the part of the department for the purpose of keeping down this expenditure on Indian affairs, and my hon. friend can rest assured that there is no money expended except in cases where actual services are rendered. So far as the medical attendance is concerned, there is always the possibility of an increase. When an Indian gets medicine one day, he Imagines he cannot get along unless he gets more the next, and there are bound to be increases from time to time, but we are doing the best we can to keep down the expenditure. The epidemic of small-pox. which has prevailed in all parts of the country, has called for more medical work, particularly among the Indians. The Department of Agriculture makes this expenditure among the Indians of the North-west, but in

the lower provinces the work has to be done by our medical officers.

Mr. TAYLOR.

We know that this Is a growing time, but the Indians are not growing in the province of Quebec, but rather decreasing. The hon. gentleman is asking for an increase over the money expended by the late government. In the supplemen-taries he is asking for $2,800 more this year. If there was an extra expenditure on account of vaccination last year, there ought not to be any this year, but yet this year he is asking for a still larger amount to carry on this work. How many Indians are there in the province of Quebec, and how many medical men are employed to treat them ?

There are 17,000 Indians, and I cannot say exactly how many medical men are employed. There are only three or four paid salaries. Most of the work is done by physicians in the neighbourhood who just send in their accounts. It is much more satisfactory when we can get physicians to do the work on salary, because where we have to pay separate accounts, there is endless difficulty.

Mr. TAYLOR.

No doubt a lot of the hon. gentleman's friends have to be considered and given employment treating the Indians.

Relief medical attendance and medicine, Ontario, $2,000.

Mr. TAYLOR.

This item shows an increase of $900 since 1895-6. The work was done then for $1,100.

The MINISTER * OF THE INTERIOR. The increase is caused by the fact that we have undertaken to do some work for the Indians on the north shore of Lake Superior, which was not done before. We are also providing $200 for the salaries of the medical attendant at Mattawa, who attends the Indians that come from the northern posts, north of the Mattawa, and who is at the call of the department for cases among the Indians in that neighbourhood. We used to have complaints frequently from the people there that no provision was made for the care of sick Indians, and we found it necessary to provide for this service.

Mr. SPROULE.

This, I take it, includes the Indians on] the Manitoulin Islands ?

Yes.

Mr. SPROULE.

What doctors are employed there now ?