This is a service rendered to a band on Manitoulin Island that has no fund of its own. There are a number of Indians who are entitled to participate in the funds of what is generally known as the Manitoulin band.

Mr. SPROULE.

The amounts given by the hon. minister represent a total of only about $000, while this vote is $2,000. There must be others the hon. minister has not given.

*If the hon. gentleman will refer to page J-7 of the Auditor General's Report, he will find an account of the manner in which the money was expended last year.

Indian Affairs-Ontario and Quebec-schools, Ontario, Quebec and maritime provinces, $42,190.

Mr. SPROULE.

Will the minister tell us where these schools are and also why this vote has crept up to the present amount from the $8,000 or so that was spent some years ago ?

I may say that a good deal of my time with the Indian Department is spent in resisting demands made on behalf of these Mr. SPROULE.

schools. If the hon. gentleman desires I will give the particulars in regard to the schools. In Ontario there are 72 day schools and 6 industrial and boarding schools. The aggregate number of pupils enrolled in the day schools in 2,201 ; the aggregate number in the industrial schools is 466. The average attendance in the day schools is 1,036, and in the industrial schools 423. We have found by experience in connection with Indian education that the average attendance at day schools bears a very small proportion, much smaller than it ought, to the total number of enrolled children ; whereas at boarding schools or industrial schools, the average attendance is' very much greater. Of these 78 schools, 42 are either wholly or in part provided for by government grant, the remainder from the funds of the bands themselves. There are 2 schools at Caradoc, 1 at Manitoulin Island, 3 at Fort William, 1 at Garden River, 1 at Golden Lake, 1 at Georgiana Island, 1 at Hiawatha, 1 at Jack Fish Island, 1 at Ne-pigon Lake, 1 at Nepigon River, 1 at Lower Muncey, 1 at Mattawa, 1 at Michipicoten, 1 at Henvey Inlet, 1 at Mississauga River, the Mohawk institute with 91 pupils, the Mount Elgin institute, with 100 pupils, 2 schools at Oneida, 1 at Pic River, 1 at Port Arthur, 1 at Pays Plat, 1 at Rama, 1 at Spanish River, 1 at Serpent River, 1 at South Bay, Manitoulin Island, 1 at Shawanaga, 1 at Six Nations, 1 at Spanish River, 1 at Shingwauk Home, 1 at Wallpole Island, 1 on the Watha reserve, 1 at White Fish Lake, 1 at White Fish River, 1 at Wikwenikong-sing, 3 at Wikwemikong, and 1 at Thessa-lon. Total grants for schools in Ontario, $31,060.

In Quebec the total number of day schools is 18 ; aggregate number of pupils on roll 763 ; average attendance, 731. Of these schools, 13 are provided for by government grant, the remainder from the funds of the bands themselves. There is one school at Becancour, 3 at Caughnawaga, 1 at Lorette,

1 at Oka Village, 1 at Restigouche River,

2 at Temiseamingue, 1 at Maria, 1 at Lake St. John, 2 at Lake St. Francois, and 1 at Betsiamits. Total grant for Quebec, $3,480.

In Nova Scotia, the number of day schools is 10 ; aggregate number on roll, 205 ; aggregate average attendance, 89. All are provided for by government grant. 1 school is at Bear River, Digby, 1 at Cow Bay, Cape Breton, 1 at Eskasoni, Cape Breton, 1 at Middle River, Victoria, 1 at New Germany, Queen's, 1 at Salmon River, Richmond, 1 at Whycocomagh, Inverness, 1 at Shubenacadie. Hants, 1 at Indian Cove, Pfctou, 1 at Mill-brook, Colchester. Total grant for Nova Scotia, $2,500.

In New Brunswick the number of day schools is 0 ; aggregate number on roll. 143 ; aggregate average attentance, 74. Ali are provided for by government grant. 1 school is at Burnt Church, Northumberland,

1 at Eel Ground, Northumberland, 1 at

King's Clear, York, 1 at St. Mary's, York, 1 at Tobique, Victoria, 1 at Big Cove, Kent. Total grant for New Brunswick, $1,400.

In Prince Edward Island the number of day schools is 1 ; number on roll, 21 ; average attendance, 11. This school is at Lennox Island. Total grant for Prince Edward Island, $300.

Then there is an item for total general expenses of $2,850, made up as follows : To provide for cost of inspection, rent, fuel, cleaning, and repairing outbuildings, and erecting outbuildings (including-$725 for accommodation and furniture for teachers of Roman Catholic schools. Lakes Huron and Superior), $2,725 ; to provide scholarships for the Mohawk institute, to pay fees at the Collegiate institute, Brantford, $125. The total expenditure ' for all the provinces is $42,190.

Mr. SPROULE.

What standard of education must your teachers possess to qualify them ?

The "MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. They are required to have the usual certificates, a third class certificate. In the province of Ontario1 the schools are inspected by the public school inspectors.

Mr. FRASER.

I know about one of these schools in our own county, conducted by a Miss Connelly. She has transformed the character of the Indian children at Pictou Landing. She has not only instructed them in school work but she has instructed them in their homes, she has gone to their homes and taught, them habits of cleanliness, and has made such a change in them that I do not know any better expenditure this government has made than for the Indian schools in our own county.

Mr. SPROULE.

What progress generally are the children making in those schools ? We hear it said frequently that they are not making much progress. .

There is no foundation for the idea that no progress is being made, or that the money is being wasted. Our position with reference to the Indians is this : We have them with us, and we have to deal with them as wards of the country. There is no question that the method we have adopted of spending money to educate them is the best possible method of bringing these people to an improved state. I can speak from my own knowledge in the North-west, and generally speaking there is a vast difference between the Indians who have passed through the day school and are now adults or becoming adults, and the Indians who have not had that advantage. There is the difference between the savage and a person who has become civilized, though perhaps not of a high type. I do not think any great improvement can be made in the work which is being carried on; we have to have inspection just as we would if we were 96J

dealing with day schools. You cannot have exactly the same degree of efficiency. You cannot press the Indian children as you can the children of white people, you cannot require so much from them. In Ontario we do not have very much difficulty because the schools are inspected by the public school inspectors, but in the other provinces we have to pay a little closer attention to detail. In outlying places there is difficulty in getting competent teachers. When you pay $300 a year and send a young woman, or a young man, out to a lonesome place where there are no social advantanges it is very difficult to get a competent teacher under those circumstances. We can only do the best we can from time to time, and if we find that a teacher is not competent on the inspector's report, we try to make a change as quickly as possible.

Mr. TAYLOR.

I see that the hon. minister is asking for $42,190 for schools in Ontario, Quebec and the maritime provinces. I turn to the Auditor General's Report at J-156, and I find that the expenditure for schools in Ontario, Quebec and the maritime provinces amounted to $12,331.59. The Auditor General gives the names of all the teachers. I do not find the name of the one that has been mentioned.

The MINISTER OB'' THE INTERIOR. If my hon. friend (Mr. Taylor) will turn to J-8 he will find the expenditure there.

Mr. TAYLOR.

In connection with the schools, the Auditor General gives all the names of the teachers and the expenditure, which amounts to $12,331.59. I turn to the next page, J-157, and I finfl the following :

H. Jacques, M.D., physician, Xing's

county S 50 00

F. H. Kelly, M.D, physician, Queen's

and Lunenburg

50 00F. Macaulay, M.D., physician, Inverness county -

75 00D. Macdonald, M.D., physician, Inverness county

12 50H. N. Macdonald, M.D., physician, Victoria county

62 60H. A. March, M.D., physician, Lunenburg county

75 00Daniel McDonald, M.D., physician, Victoria county

225 00

D. K. Mclutyre, M.D., physician, Sydney,

C.E 250 00

My hon. friend is not referring to the expenditure in connection with this vote.

Mr. TAYLOR (reading) :

J. C. McKinnon, M.D., physician, Anti-gonish county $150 00

E. D. McLean, M.D., physician, Hants

county

150 00R. Withers, M.D., physician, Annapolis county '

50 00F. S. Yorkston, M.D., physician1, Colchester county

150 00J. S. Benson, M.D., physician

100 00J. F. Desmond, M.D., physician, Newcastle

179 17A. G. Ferguson, M.D., physician 25 00

And so they go on.

Is that at page 157 ?

Mr. TAYLOR.

That is at page 157. I would like to know how many Indians there are down there, and how many doctors are required to look after them ?

If the hon. gentleman will look at J-8 he will find the expenditure under this vote-schools, Ontario, and Quebec, and maritime provinces. He will find that it was $38,827.83.

Mr. MCLENNAN.

Mr. Chairman, with regard to the expenditures in Inverness county for these schools and for medical attendance, I beg to say that the sum of $150 has been set aside to pay for medical attendance. There are two Indian reserves in the county of Inverness. One of these physicians attend the Indians on each reserve, and $150, at my suggestion, has been divided between them. Hence it is that so many names appear as receiving money from this government for medical services in Inverness. The whole amount does not exceed $150. I do not know how it is in other counties, but that is what holds true in the county of Inverness. With regard to the schools, I can only say that the government, at my suggestion also, built a very fine school there at an expenditure of $700 or so, and I may say, as the hon. minister said in regard to the schools in Ontario, the public inspector visits the Indian school just as regularly, and is bound to do so, as he visits any other school in the county of Inverness. The teacher also must be licensed, holding a provincial license, as the gentleman in charge of the Indian school now does. Sometimes I regret that the young Indians in that school are making such progress that they are very greatly adding to my correspondence. While I am up here they write to me and make known their wants like ordinary mortals in that county.

Mr. SPROULE.

They know that the hon. gentleman (Mr. McLennan) is controlling the patronage. I was going to ask the hon. minister what books they use for the instruction of the children. Are they taught in various languages or are they required to be taught in any other language than English ?

They are taught in English.

Mr. SPROULE.

English only ?