Mr. INGRAM.

But, on the other hand, the accusation is that they did stuff the lists in the province of Quebec ?

Yes, investigation shows it.

Mr. MONK.

I see the point made by my hon. friend. But, the matter will be thoroughly sifted before this matter is passed. We will know if the statement of the Minister of Agriculture is true and if the charge, the violent charge, made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce is well founded-that there are a very large number of perjurers among the French population of Quebec. That charge so repeatedly made will have to be sifted to the bottom. I can tell hon. members that the people of the province of Quebec, part of whom I represent here, have keenly felt that charge. AVe are Conservatives and Liberals in the province of Quebec and we have our political difficulties as other people have. But I should be very sorry to rise in this House and charge that the Liberal enumerators of 1901 were perjurers. And what is still stranger than the fact of such a charge being made concerning the enumerators of 1891 is the fact that it is proven out of the mouth of our Roman Catholic clergy. We will see the bottom of that before this item passes. For my part, I am prepared to suspend judgment until we have before us all the documents we have a right to see. In the meantime, I will examine the documents so far presented.

Mr. BENNETT.

Coming to the alleged charges of falsification of the census in Ontario, I am informed that the inquiries were not made at random but specifically in every riding, and that the only county in which "the investigator dared to put down anything definite was the county of Huron. In this case, the statement is made by a Mr. Macplierson. This gentleman does not live in Goderich, but, apparently in Clinton,

as lie writes from Clinton. Who is lie, and what is his occupation ?

1 am informed that Mr. Macpherson is a member of the firm of Macpherson, Glasgow & Co., makers of agricultural implements, and lives in the town of Clinton.

Mr. BENNETT.

This investigator or inquisitor lives in the village of Clinton, which, I think, is about ten or fifteen miles from Goderich. In 1891 Goderich was returned as having a population of about 4,000. After a lapse of ten years this gentleman goes up there. He does not make a single statement on his own authority, but what he says is ' after making careful inquiries of different old residents.' I suppose he took old people because their memory might he at fault and they might be easily persuaded to agree to what he said. This statement the Minister of Agriculture read out to show that the list for Goderich had been stuffed. The census was taken early in the year 1891. Now, take the first name mentioned as having been improperly included in the census list. This is Elizabeth Tebutt, who was enumerated twice, once in Goderich township and once in Clinton. I know nothing of the case, but I presume this woman was a domestic. She may have been at her home in Goderich township when the enumerator went around, and was proba bly included in the census again by the enumerator for Clinton where she was working. Now, the town of Goderich is a lake port of importance and a number of vesels run in and out of there. I find the name Worthington given here with the remarks that this party was in Chicago in 1891, and another party was in Buffalo, and so on. These men were probably vessel men, and were properly taken by the enumerator at Goderich. Everybody knows that a man connected with a vessel leaves home in the spring for the fitting-out work that is done on the boat. If the bulk of these cases were inquired into, I have no doubt it would be found that these men lived in Goderich and their occupation was such as to take them away during a part of the year. One is represented here as having been in Winnipeg, one in St. Paful, one in Vancouver, and others in other places. What does that indicate ? It indicates that this very inquisitive gentleman-who, I have no doubt we shall find out later on was well paid for his inquisitiveness-learned the names of people who. at some time of the year were away. He does not say that they were away the whole year. They may have been there in 1891 when the census was taken and been away in the fall. On this list are the names of the enumerators whose work is here impugned. Have they been asked for an explanation ?

I do not think so.

Mr. BENNETT.

Does the hon. minister think it is British fair-play to lay on the Table a statement opposite which is a name of, no doubt, a respectable man of the county of Huron or the town of Goderich, which statement practically brands that man as a perjurer ? I think my former statement is true, that these inquiries were made all over the province from the members representing the ridings, and that the member of that particular riding seemed to be very busy about this town of Goderich and the town of Clinton where he lives. Go all through the list and you find the same thing. Here are two men who were said to have been employed elsewhere in 1891, and the statement does not say they were not there in the spring of the year when the enumeration was taken.

The statements all have reference to the 6th of April.

Mr. BENNETT.

The minister says that, but Mr. Macpherson does not say it. On the face of it. Mr. Macpherson knew nothing about it. He lives ten miles away from this town. Is the minister going to ask the people of this country to be asses enough to believe that a man who lives twelve miles away from a town can go hack ten years afterwards and pledge his word that on this particular date, the 6th of April, every one of these men were not in that town I live in a town of 3,000 population, and I would hesitate to allege that on the 1st of April of a particular year men were not in that town who perhaps were there. Here is another statement. There is a Mr. Cook, a Mr. Corbett, a Mr. Woodcock, a Mr. Reid and a Mr. Stiver. I do not know any one of those men. Perhaps you do, Mr. Chairman, as you come from Huron ; and would you be prepared to say that these men were perjurers ? Now this man Macpherson would not venture to say this is true under the solemnity of an oath, and lie would not. hold himself responsible that there is one statement true on his own knowledge ; he says that the statements are made to him. I think it is preposterous that the minister should place such a document before the House and make wholesale charges based upon it. I am glad to know that having scoured Ontario front one end to the other in a vain attack on tile census returns of 3891. he was only able to find in this town of Goderich the particular instances of wrongdoing that he mentions, and which, on their very face, will not carry to any fair minded man an idea that there was anything wrong on the part of these enumerators. Now, here is a test for the minister. He has the criminal law of the province of Ontario behind him, and he lias been afraid to prosecute one of these men

Mr. BENNETT.

for perjury. I ask the minister if lie lias prosecuted one of those men for making false returns ?

No.

Mr. BENNETT.

Does he propose to prosecute any of those men for fraud ?

I have not proposed to do so.

Mr. BENNETT.

I admire the hon. gentleman's discretion. Here on the 17th of February this statement is sent in by Mr. Macpherson, and the minister thinks that between man and man it is fair and honest to these gentlemen to make this slander on them without asking them for an explanation.

I want to correct the hon. gentleman in saying that the province of Ontario was carefully scoured to find out those frauds. There was no attempt of the kind in any shape or form.

Mr. INGRAM.

In no case 7

In no case. There was no inquiry made, and in this very place where an investigation was made there was no preliminary inquiry of any kind. Before the work was commenced we had no idea what the result was going to be. As a matter of fact, there were five places in which this work was conducted, and in two of those places, two townships in one riding, there was evidence that the census was taken correctly in 1891, jind in the others there was evidence that it was not.

Mr. TAYLOR.

Will the hon. gentleman give those statements ?

1 gave them in full to the House not long ago. The places in which the investigation was made were in Huron west, in Goderich and Clinton, in the town of Simcoe, and the village of Port Dover, in the south riding of Norfolk, where also many errors were found. In Cornwall also irregularities were found.