Mr. N. BOYD (Macdonald).

Before the Orders of the day are called, I desire to ask the government if we are to have the amendments to the Grain Act that were promised early in the session, and, if so, when ? I understand we are approaching the close of the session, and as this is a very important matter to the people of Manitoba and the North-west, I trust that the government will take us into their confidence and let us know when we are to expect this measure, so that we may be prepared to discuss it intelligently.

We expect that this Bill will be introduced within a day or two.

Mr. CLARKE.

I gave notice of an amendment to clause 11, the purport of which is to make it clear that this company, when Incorporated, shall not be permitted to

Sir RICHARD CARTWRIGHT.

discriminate against individuals or municipalities in supplying power for any purpose, whether for lighting, heating or for motive purposes. The clause reads now :

The company may supply hydraulic, electric

or other power at such rates and

upon such conditions as are agreed upon, a.id the company may contract with any company or person having erected or having power to erect.

I propose to amend the clause as follows :

The company shall supply hydraulic, electric or other power by means of cables, machinery or other forces, to all persons, corporations and municipalities desiring the same along the line of its works, or within a reasonable distance thereof ; and at such rates and upon such conditions as may be agreed upon ; and if unable to agree, upon such terms as may be ordered by the Railway Committee of the Privy Council of Canada.

The object, Mr. Chairman, of the amendment is this : It may be merely a coincidence, but the gentlemen who are now applying for incorporation and asking for this Act from parliament are those who practically control the Toronto Railway Company and the Toronto Electric Light Companies. The franchise of the Toronto Railway Company has some years yet to run ; it will be a most valuable franchise when it falls back again into the possession of the city. If this company is permitted to discriminate in the sale of power, it may render valueless a franchise that otherwise would be of very great value. There is nothing to prevent this company, after it has obtained incorporation, from using the power that it may become possessed of at Niagara Falls, only in its own interests, or in the promotion of those industries, the Electric Light Companies and the Toronto Railway Company, with which it is now specially identified. The feeling in favour of municipalities operating their franchises, such as tramways and lighting, is growing stronger every day. This company is being given very large powers in this Bill, and I think it is not at all unreasonable to make a reasonable provision that if In future, in five years, or three years, or ten years from now, the municipalities along the line of the company's works between Niagara Falls and Toronto should desire to operate a municipal electric light, or to operate their tramways, there should be no discrimination as to the rates at which the power should be supplied by this company. I think that these provisions are so reasonable and so just that the promoters of the Bill cannot offer any serious objection to them. I hope the committee and the promoter of the Bill will agree with me, and allow clause 11 to be amended in the direction I have indicated. It has been suggested that possibly the company might not have enough power to supply all the demands that may be made upon it by the municipalities or by individuals. It is proposed to

obviate a difficulty of that kind, if it should arise, by section 11a of which I have given uotice, that is, that the Railway Committee, upon application, shall adjudicate between the parties.

Hr. CAMPBELL.

This Bill has received very careful attention from the committee, and when these amendments were proposed it was not thought in the interest of the public that they should be adopted. For my part, I cannot see any necessity for changing the word 'may' into 'shall.' We have never done it in any Bills that we have passed through the House. This company is investing a large amount of money in an enterprise that is in the public interest, and like every other company, they have asked the right to supply municipalities, corporations and individuals along their line with hydraulic, and electric; power, and so on. It is, of course, thedr business, and their interest to supply these companies, that is what they are investing their money for, and they hope to make a profit out of it. But when you come on and say that they shall supply-make it compulsory, why, it is going a great length indeed; it is something that I am sure the committee will not insist on, because the company may not be able to supply all the power that is required. The amendment proposes that they shall supply ' to all persons, corporations and municipalities desiring the same along the line of its works or within a reasonable distance thereof.' A far-reaching clause indeed, and I do not think it would be fair at all to put such a clause as that in the Bill. This is not the first instance in which we have had legislation of this kind. Last year this House chartered the St. Lawrence Power Company, assented to on the 23rd of May, of last year, identically the same Act asking for the same power. We did not then find the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Clarke) insisting in putting in the word ' shall ' instead of the word ' may.' Again, we have had the Ottawa & Hull Power Company, a company seeking the same powers that this company is doing, asking the same privileges, and there was no question then that the word ' may ' should be struck out and the word ' shall ' be inserted. Then we have had the Ontario and Niagara Falls Power Company, identically the same as this, with the same powers and privileges, authorized by this parliament only two years ago, and in all that Bill there is no such stringent provision-absurd provision to my mind, I may say-as is proposed now by the member for West Toronto.

Mr. COWAN.

And it gets its power from the same source.

Mr. CAMPBELL.

Then we have the Hamilton and Lake Erie Power Company also granted a charter by this House, and we have the Continental Light and Heat Company. All these charters have been granted by this parliament on precisely the

same conditions as this company, asking the same privileges for generating heat, light and electricity by hydraulic power, and furnishing it to municipalities and corporations along the line. Parliament has never insisted on those companies being forced to do so, compelled, whether they can or not. The committee can readily see that if that word ' shall ' goes in there instead of ' may,' and if, for any cause, they are unable to furnish the power that might be demanded of them, they would be put in a very disastrous position. The men at the head of this company are men of standing, men of ability, their financial strength is undoubted, they are going on in a regular way, and propose to enter into this as a business venture, and will, I have no doubt, supply all the corporations, municipalities and persons along the line as far as they are able to do it. I, for one, must protest against the amendment that is proposed by the member for Toronto.

I am inclined to agree altogether with the hon. member for West York (Mr. Campbell). In the first place, we have incorporated a large number of companies giving practically the same power that is given to this company. If it is desirable to have legislation along the lines suggested by the hon. member for West Toronto, then, it should be incorporated in a general Act and all companies should come under this general Act the same as railway companies do. Imagine picking out the Canadian Pacific Railway and saying that that road should be subject to a certain regulations to be fixed by the city of Toronto and at the same time exempting all other companies. It seems to me that if there is anything in the suggestions made by the hon. member for West Toronto they should be introduced into a general Act and made applicable to all companies similarly situated. The city of Toronto was represented by its solicitor before the committee when this Bill was considered and he appeared to agree with the changes and amendments made. Other representatives from the city of Toronto were also preseut at the committee and there was not any prolonged discussion of the matter. There are no extraordinary privileges being granted to this company ; they are simply asking for the usual Act of incorporation to enable them to do business. The hon. gentleman gives notice of an amendment proposing to strike out of clause 13 the words ' unnecessary damage.' Perhaps the committee have gone further on this occasion than is customary in other incorporations of this kind, because, when this point was brought to the attention of the committee, they did strike out the word ' unnecessary.' So, the Bill has been amended so far as this point is concerned. I submit that the amendments of which the hon. member for West Toronto has given notice should be incor-

porated in general legislation and not applied to this Bill, thus placing other companies that have already been incorporated in a better position than this company which is composed of most substantial men and men who are probably more likely than any other to carry out what is desirable in bringing electrical power to Niagara Falls and distributing it through that section of Ontario. I do not know what view I might take upon the merits of these suggestions if they came before the House in a proper way, but, I think it would be most unfair that they should be specially directed against this company, preventing them from going on with their business and leaving the work which they propose to do in the hands of others who are now incorpi'ated. I think that we should not direct this special legislation against this company while not applying it to all other companies.