Hon. Mr. TISDALE.

I understand that he does not get anything under the Civil Service Superannuation Act ?

Nothing at all, and he would lose that but for this provision.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

I did not clearly understand the hon. minister. Under the Civil Service Pension Act an official pays two and a half per cent per year. Under the military system he would have to pay five per cent per year. On retiring from the military service, he gets the benefit of his civil service and military service, provided he pays the difference between the two percentages.

That is it.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

But the government loses the interest on the payments of the extra two and a half per cent during ten or fifteen years.

No, the government has the money.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

At the end of the term, tlie official pays the difference between two and a Half and five per cent. But if he had been all the time in the military service, he would have paid five per cent per year. Therefore, when he pays it in a lump sum at the end of the term, tlie government loses the interest, which may be quite a large amount.

That may be.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

I do not quite understand how the concluding words of this section. ' Subject to the provisions of subsection two of section five,' can apply.

Take two cases. Suppose an officer has served twenty-five years, fifteen of which were before there was any Pension Act. During those fifteen years he paid nothing, but he will get his pension for the twenty-five years less deduction made of the premiums during the fifteen years, when he did not pay anything. Take another case. An officer has paid during ten years two and a half per cent into the civil service superannuation fund. During the next fifteen years he has paid five per

cent into the military service pension fund. Under this Bill, the intention is only to charge him the two and a half per cent during those ten years instead of the five.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

The difficulty is this. Subsection two of section five of the present law provides for the case of an officer who in years gone by had no deduction whatever made from his pay. You strike an average of his pay and then make a deduction from his pension of five per cent on that average for every year during which he paid nothing. But how can you make this subsection apply to the present case, for you are not making a deduction of five per cent but only of two and a half per cent. You are applying a clause which deals specifically with one case to another and a different case.

I see the difficulty now, and will consider the matter. The five per cent is mentioned; and therefore, I think it would be desirable to draw up a clause long enough to state exactly what is intended.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

I think that would be the safer course.

I move that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

Before the Committee rises, I would like to understand the practical use of this amendment. I cau-not understand a civil servant who has been eight or ten years in the service getting an appointment on the staff or going into the permanent corps. Is it intended to have some ex post facto effect ? Is it to cover the case of some officer who has been in the department?

No. No particular case is aimed at, but I will give the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Haggart) a case such as would be covered by this. It is intended, in the near future, to transfer the stores branch of my department to the military side, making it an ordnance branch and putting it under military supervision. Now, we have in the stores branch civil servants who have been paying for years to the civil service fund. For instance, there is the head of that branch; and it would certainly be manifestly unfair to deprive him of the benefit of the money lie has paid into the superannuation fund.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

What was passing through my mind was the question whether the converse will happen, and some officer will go from the permanent corps to the civil service ?

Not likely. The Pension Act is very much better here.

Progress reported.

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