April 15, 1903

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The MINISTER OP RAILWAYS AND .CANALS (Hon. A. G. Blair).

Has the hon. 'gentleman (Mr. Brock) before him the statute he seeks to amend ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.
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CON

William Rees Brock

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BROCK.

I have not it before me, but it is quoted in the Bill-subsection 5, section 514 of the Criminal Code. The most important provision of the Bill, probably, is that in the next subsection, which reads :

5a. No smaller animals shall he confined or carried in the same car, van or vessel with any larger animals of different species, unless a suitable and substantial partition, securely fastened to the car, van or vessel, is placed and maintained, and is sufficiently strong, to keep the smaller animals securely separate, from the larger animals.

A year ago, I was sent for to go to the cattle market in Toronto to inspect a carload of animals that had been sent in from some distance. Lambs and sheep had been driven in under the larger cattle, and many of them arrived in Toronto in a most shocking state. The lambs and some of the sheep had been trampled and some were disembowelled. The railway company stated that they had no responsibility in the matter, the responsibility being with the shipper. It is difficult to get at the shippers as they may be at a great distance and hard to find. We thought, therefore, that we should have an Act of this kind by which we could get at the railway in case cattle should arrive in such a state. The last section of the Bill provides for right of entry and is as follows :

The right of entry provided for in section 515 of the said code may be exercised in or upon any car, van, truck, vehicle, cockpit, vessel, place or premises in which any police officer or constable has reasonable grounds for supposing that any breach of sections 512, 513 or 514, as hereby amended, is taking or has taken place.

That is the whole Bill.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.
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The MINISTER OE RAILWAYS AND CANALS.

I may explain that this is the very first moment that my attention has been called to this Bill and that I learn that it deals at all with the question of railways. That being the case, I am quite unable, at the moment, to give such consideration to the clauses of the Bill as would enable me to pass upon them with any satisfaction to mvself or with any advantage to the committee. I think that the Bill is one that might very properly be referred in the ordinary way to the Select Standing Committee on Railways. It has a very important bearing on railways, and should be threshed out by that committee. I have no doubt at all that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Brock) is proposing a very proper remedy for very serious grievances. I have no opinion at all against this Bill, and it is not with the view of offering the slightest opposition to it that I make the suggestion that this committee rise and the Bill be referred to the committee on Railways, where the matter can be better dealt with.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.
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CON

William Rees Brock

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BROCK.

I have no objection whatever to the suggestion of the hon. minister (Mr. Bair). But the hon gentleman and the House will see that this Bill applies not only to railways, but to farmers who bring cattle into market, as they often do, in large vans. It also has reference to the loading of cattle aboard vessels.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.
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The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.

Of course, it is not limited to railways, but it has an important bearing upon the operation of railways. Will my hon. friend (Mr. Brock) move that the committee rise, so that the reference to the railway company may take place.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.
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CON

William Rees Brock

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BROCK.

I am quite willing to take

that course, as I take it that it is the quickest way to reach the object I have in view, which is to have this Bill made a law as soon as possible.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.
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CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

This is a Bill to make further provision for the prevention of cruelty to animals and to amend the Criminal Code, 1892. It can be only incidently-I think very incidently-that it would require the consideration of the Railway Committee. I understand that it may be necessary for the hon. minister to look into the Bill but there is something ominous in the reference of the Bill to the Railway Committee. I was about to suggest to my hon. friend from Centre Toronto (Mr. Brock) that the Bill might be allowed to stand for the consideration of the minister instead of being referred to the Railway Committee.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.
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CON

William Rees Brock

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BROCK.

I simply wanted to have the Bill made law, and if the best way is to allow it to stand for the present, I am willing to allow it to stand.

The MINISTER OB' RAILWAYS AND CANALS. 1 would suggest that my hon. friend (Mr. Brock) should move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. I do not know why my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) should speak as he does ataut the reference to the Railway Committee. I do not think that he has anything that would justify the suggestion that Bills referred to that committee receive anything but the fullest and fairest consideration.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.
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CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

I have found such a reference to be the death of a Bill.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.
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The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.

And why not ? What is the use

of haying a committee, unless it has full power to express its judgment upon measures referred to it ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.
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CON

Frederick Debartzch Monk

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MONK.

I think mine is the experience of a great many members of this House.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.
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The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS.

I do not agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Monk). The reference to the committee is simply for the better guidance and management of our legislation. There is no such object in view as the hon. gentleman suggests. I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.
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CON

David Tisdale

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. TISDALE.

When a minister asks that such a course should be followed, we take it as equivalent to an assurance on the part of the government that the Bill shall not be delayed, but shall come back to the House in good time. Otherwise it would not be fair to the hon. mover of the Bill to take such a step. But assuming that the motion is equivalent to the assurance I speak of, I do not know of any better place for the consideration of these clauses with regard to the shipment of animals than the Railway Committee. That is the proper tribunal. But, if the minister does not agree that the Bill shall go there with the understanding I have mentioned, it might be equivalent to the death of the Bill. He will see that we have a chance. I think that is the best course to adopt.

Progress reported.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.
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OTTAWA VALLEY RAILWAY COMPANY.


Bill (No. 68) to incorporate the Lumbermen's Fire Insurance Company.-Mr. Charlton-by Mr. Calvert. Bill (No. 84) respecting the Quebec and New Brunswick Railway Company.-Mr. Belcourt-by Mr. Lemieux. Bill (No. 85) to incorporate the Berlin, Waterloo, Wellesley and Georgian Bay Railway Company.-Mr. Clare-by Mr. Lancaster. Bill (No. 87) to incorporate the Vancouver and Coast Kootenay Railway Company.-Mr. Maepherson-by Mr. McCreary. [DOT] Bill (No. 89) to incorporate the Brockville and North-western Railway Company.-Mr. Dyment- by Mr. Dyment. Bill (No. 90) respecting the Niagara-Well-and Power Company, Limited; and to change its name to the Niagara-Welland Power Company.-Mr. Guthrie-by Sir. Calvert. Bill (No. 91) to incorporate the Dominion Gas Improvement Company.-Sir. Belcourt. Bill (No. 92) respecting the Dominion Burglary Guarantee Company, Limited; and to change its name to the Dominion Guarantee Company, Limited.-Mr. Bickerdike.


THE NEW CANADIAN COMPANY, LIMITED.

LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux

Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX.

A mistake has been committed. Bill (No. 83) to incorporate the New Canadian Company, Limited, which stands in my name, has been passed over.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE NEW CANADIAN COMPANY, LIMITED.
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LIB

Peter Macdonald (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Sir. DEPUTY SPEAKER.

It has been called.

The PRIME S1INISTER (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier). He can move it now.

M1'- MONK moved the second reading of Bill (No. 59) respecting the Ottawa Valley Railway Company.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE NEW CANADIAN COMPANY, LIMITED.
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LIB

Charles Marcil

Liberal

Sir. C. MARCIL (Bonaventure).

I object to this Bill being taken up in place of Bill (No. 36) respecting the Atlantic and Lake Superior Railway Company. Some nights ago when Bill (No. .36) came up, the hon. member for Nicolet (Sir. Ball) moved the second reading, and he was. asked to allow it to stand. I object to Bill (No. 59) being rend, because it is connected with Bill (No. 36). I have just allowed Bill (No. 36) to stand at the request of the member for Nicolet. I do not want Bill (No. 59) to go on now, because it forms part of Bill (No 36). I want both Bills to stand, or else I wish to proceed with Bill (No. 36)

The PRIS1E S1INISTER (Rt. Hon. Wilfrid Laurier). Stand.

Sir

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   THE NEW CANADIAN COMPANY, LIMITED.
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SECOND READINGS.

April 15, 1903