Mr. PARMELEE.

Hon. gentlemen on the other side persist in confusing accounts that are paid for printing and accounts that are paid for advertising. As a matter of fact, a very small portion of the public printing is done outside the Bureau, and when it is done outside the Bureau it is because the Bureau is congested with work and is not able to turn it out in proper time and shape. The Bureau is fairly well equipped. As everybody knows, this is a growing time, and during the last ten or fifteen years the amount of printing' done for parliament has probably doubled, while the Bureau has not been increased in order to keep pace with the increased public printing and the printing of all sorts in connection with the departments of the government. Now, when the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Taylor) says tbat the Montreal ' Herald ' has been paid $100,000 a year for printing and advertising, he does not make the distinction between printing and advertising. But I venture to say that he is entirely wrong in his figures. The

Mr. SPROULE.

Montreal ' Herald ' has never been paid any such amount.

Mr. TAYLOR.

For five years.

Mr. PARMELEE.

Well, I think the hon. gentleman did not make that very clear.

Mr. TAYLOR.

I read Sir Mackenzie Bowell's statement in the Senate.

Mr. PARMELEE.

I understood the hon. gentleman to say it was for one year. For five years, possibly he is in the main correct. But I can say this, that all the public printing done outside the Bureau has been done at reasonable prices, and not at fourteen prices, as we know were charged some years ago by printers who did printing for the government when our friends the enemy Were in power.

Mr. SPROULE.

I think that is quite a gratuitous statement. In analysing these accounts, we found that in some cases the parties were paid double prices and treble prices for printing, and to say the government get value for it, is to say what we did not find by actual inquiry when we had the accounts brought before us. As to the statement of the hon. gentleman about the very small percentage of printing done outside, could that hon. gentleman tell us how much of it is done outside ? I have heard some similar statements made in that connection in this House, but when we come to look into them closely we find that they are not borne out in fact at all but that the very reverse is the case and that a very large percentage of this work has been done outside. I remember that one or two years ago the statement was made that there was practically no printing done in connection with the department of the hon. Postmaster General and that afterwards the hon. Postmaster General himself admitted that a large proportion of the work was done in Montreal. Hon. members, when speaking upon a subject of that kind, ought to speak of What they know and they ought to give the source from which they get their information, because we want rather a reasoned judgment than the ipse dixit of any hon. member.

Mr. HOLMES.

The hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule) is absolutely wrong in so far as he charges that exorbitant prices were paid to the Montreal ' Herald.'

Mr. SPROULE.

I did not mention the Montreal ' Herald ' at all. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Holmes) need not put up a man of straw and then knock him over.

Mr. HOLMES.

Some hon. members have been alluding to the accounts of the Montreal ' Herald.' The accounts of the Montreal ' Herald ' were investigated before the Public Accounts Committee last year, or two years ago, and they are being investigated at the present time, and I venture to say that the committee will find that only fair and reasonable charges have been made

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in connection with that expenditure. It was proved before the House, and the statement was made by the Chairman of the Printing Committee, that the Hamilton ' Spectator ' had received fourteen prices for job work which was let out by the late government. On general principles X believe that the Bureau ought to do all the printing that it is possible to do, and I believe that is what it is doing at the present time. If the hon. gentleman will take up the report of the King's Printer, he will find that he repeats the complaint that he has made year after year that the facilities at the Bureau are not adequate for turning out all the printing that is required to be done for the various departments in connection with the printing of parliament. The Bureau, at the time it was erected, was too small to meet the demands made upon it, and with the increased demands which have arisen since then, it is absolutely impossible to turn out the work required by this parliament. I am not justifying the giving of work to outside offices unless it is absolutely necessary. In regard to the charges that are made, hon. members must remember that these are for lithographing work as well as printing. The Bureau does not do lithographing work. Lithographing work is a separate branch of printing, and has to be done in outside offices. I venture to say that if hon. members make an examination of the accounts in the Public Accounts Committee, they will find that the charges made for work done are the ordinary charges for commercial work in any city in the Dominion.

Mr. LENNOX.

It is very refreshing to hear the hon. member for West Huron (Mr. Holmes) give us his little lecture. He is an hon. gentleman, I believe, who is eminently capable of that kind of thing, but in dealing with a business matter it may, perhaps, be better to deal with it upon some business basis. For any hon. member of this House to get up for the purpose of making the plea that years ago some government paid a large price for work similar to this, is to make a very poor plea indeed. I think if the hon. gentleman cannot make a better plea on behalf of the government than to go back to the olden days aud resurrect something without proof, as a matter of fact, -but, even if you admit it to be a fact-if he cannot give any better argument than that, he only weakens the case that he endeavours to support. It is not a question at all of what other governments have done. This government came into power pledged that they would do a great deal better than any government which preceded it.

Mr. HOLMES.

So they did.

Hear, hear.

Mr. FRASER, And they had not much of a task.

Mr. LENNOX.

Is there anything the matter with hon. gentlemen over there ?

Keep cool.

Mr. LENNOX.

I can keep cool. I want to say what meets with the concurrence of every sensible business man, and it is that it is time we were done absolutely and for ever with this miserable, petty plea brought forward from time to time, ' you did the same thing.'

Mr. HOLMES.

You had better set an example on that side of the House.

Mr. LENNOX.

I do not know to w'liat the hon. gentleman alludes. He may think he makes a telling point by that, but I cannot see what relevancy it has to what I am discussing. If the hon. gentleman contends that this is a good and proper method, why then, I feel to a. certain extent set down and knocked out, and for this reason : The hon. gentleman is a very high authority on all questions, on business questions, on questions of printing, on questions of morality, and I believe on questions of religion, but I do not understand him to seriously contend that is a proper course for any government to pursue.

Mr. SPROULE.

In reference to printing, the hon. member for West Huron made the statement that I referred to the printing done by the Montreal ' Herald.' I never spoke of the Montreal ' Herald ' at all. What I referred to was a sheet distributed for immigration purposes and which was brought before the Public Accounts Committee. I think, if I remember correctly, that sheet cost something like $800 or $1,000 to print. I have heard from practical printers, who have been in the business for years and years, that we paid more than three prices for that work. It was, I think, literally admitted that there were very large prices paid for it, even by hon. members on' that side of the House wrho were trying to put up the best possible defence they could at the time. If we are to regard this as an example of what we may expect to find in other branches in connection with government printing, I said that we were justified in coming to the conclusion that we were paying out a very great deal of money for printing and that we got very little in return.

Contingent expenses in connection with voters' lists. $20,000.

Mr. SPROULE.

What is that to be used for now ?