Mr. SPROULE.

I am merely drawing attention to that feature of the American law.

I think the hon. member for Toronto (Mr. Kemp) and the hon. member for East Grey (Mr. Sproule) must harmonize their views if they are going to act as a compact force in hostility to this Bill.

Mr. KEMP.

I am sure I am not acting in any hostile way towards this Bill. I think the Bill is a very good one, but I am not clear as to the difference between a competitive tariff and a special tariff. I do not see any place in the Bill where this point is covered. This tariff is not to be published, but the one mentioned in clause 202 is to be made public. Now, where is the clause that refers to special competitive tariffs that are not to be made public.

Mr. BARKER.

I suppose subsection 3 of 200 is the one.

You will find it in the amended subsection 4 of section 202. I admit that these are subjects of a technical character [DOT] which the ordinary man is not able to understand without devoting a good deal of attention and study to them. I think that lion, gentlemen opposite, if they desire to assist in putting through the Bill, as I think they do, will have to take for granted that some attention and some study have been given to these things so as to make a scheme workable, without doing any injury to the business of the country. I could hardly be compelled to make hon. gentlemen opposite understand all these provisions when there may be some that I do not clearly understand myself.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

But the trouble with me is that I do not see the difference between a special tariff and a competitive tariff. Would the minister tell me the difference ?

If the hon. gentleman will read the Bill, and is able to understand it, he will see the difference. Differences exist in railway operations and traffic. The law has defined the difference. I presume the

hon. member will not ask me to go over it again and give a rgsumd of the whole definition and description of the whole classes of tariffs.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

No, I will not, particularly as I see that the hon. minister knows nothing about the difference. He has a very clever way of getting around the difficulty.

The MINISTER, OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS. I do not know how the hon. gentleman can say that I do not know anything about it, because he is absolutely without any knowledge himself. I do not know how he will be competent to judge as to the competency of anybody else. This Bill provides for three different classes of freight tariffs. There is the standard freight tariff. That is the maximum. That is the tariff which is prepared by the companies and submitted to the board and if it receives the approval of the board it is the standard tariff that governs. Then, in special cases, in cases of special traffic and special classes of goods, this Bill contemplates that the companies may prepare and submit special freight tariffs. When these special freight tariffs are submitted they may go into operation and the company may make a tariff as low as it pleases as a special freight tariff. It has to be filed and this special freight tariff, if it is not competitive, the Act contemplates, shall be published. There is another class of tariff which is not intended by tlfe company to come within either of these two classes, standard freight or special freight tariff, which may come within the third class which is called the competitive class, and which is designed to encourage competition in the fullest possible degree. That class of tariff may be imposed by the company without the sanction of the board. The company may take shipments under that tariff and the tariff need not be published. It is communicated to the board for the private knowledge and information of the board, and why we require that it should be placed before file board is that the board may have under its hand the means of knowledge so that it can determine whether or not from among the classes of business the company was doing at a certain time it was unduly discriminating in its provisions contrary to the provisions of this Bill. I think it would be difficult to design any more effective means of protecting the public and guarding against improper discrimination and, at the same time affording the freest hand and the widest latitude to railway companies to go on with their business.

Mr. KEMP.

Supposing that a railway company which did not make a competitive tariff was suspicious that a railway company which did make one was giving lower rates than authorized by the commission, if it applied to the commission or this competitive tariff, would the commission give it to that railway company ?

That is a matter, which, of course, would necessarily be in the discretion of the commission. If anybody who felt he had a grievance because some lower rate was given by the railway company to his neighbour than to himself came before the railway commission, the commission would say : Well, what is your complaint,

what is it that you say the company has done for your neighbour ? If the information received from him should be such as to convince the board, or the member of the board that might be going into the matter at the moment, that there was ground to suspect discrimination was going on, it would not be necessary that the board should hand over a copy of this tariff to the complainant. They would be moved to have this thing further inquired into and such definite action taken as they thought proper to take against the company that was discriminating. The design is that this tariff shall not be made public so that opposing railways could know what , a neighbour railway was doing in offering cheap rates. I think it is very proper that such information should be withheld.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

After that explanation I do not see any difference yet between the special freight tariff and the competitive tariff except this; the company has to publish the special freight tariff for a certain number of days and let the public know what it is. The competitive tariff need not be published at all. But, the moment the tariff is approved by the board or filed with the board, the distinction between the competitive and special tariffs ceases.

On subsection (c), section 274-filing and publication of competitive tariffs,

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

Here is a provision for a competitive tariff, and the distinction between that and the special tariff was that one was to be made public and the other not. Under this section the competitive tariff is obliged to be open for the inspection of the public.

The intention of this is that the board, when they know all the circumstances of the case, may have power to exempt this from publication.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

I see that ; but in some cases competitive tariffs are to be published unless the board specially exempts them. It appears to me that a special tariff may be a competitive tariff, and the two things are so closely joined that I cannot see the distinction yet.

I will try to make my hon. friend see the difference between a special tariff

and a competitive tariff. The distinction between these two tariffs does not consist at all in the circumstance that one may be exempted by the board from publication and the other not. A special freight tariff is a tariff which in addition is based upon the rules that govern it and it is controlled by the law on the short haul principle, but the competitive tariff is not.

Mr. KEMP.

Might I ask the minister if, under any circumstances, such a thing as a competitive tariff could exist between the city of Ottawa and Peterborough, Ontario, for instance ? There is no water competition.

It would not be limited to water competition.

Mr. KEMP.

The Canadian Pacific Railway and the Canada Atlantic Railway and the Grand Trunk Railway go to Peterborough-could a competitive tariff exist between Ottawa and Peterborough ?

There cannot be any possible objection to competition between railroads running between any two points in Canada that are reached by two roads.

Mr. KEMP.

Before this section is adopted, I would like to draw the attention of the minister to a matter which I think lie has heard of before. How are the public to know when it is the intention of the committee to revise tariffs or classifications ? I think it was suggested to the minister that notice of all changes of tariff should be sent to certain boards of trade or other com-[DOT] mercial organizations. It has been the complaint of these organizations for a long time past that they have not known of these changes, and have not been able to present the. case of the public. Is there any way that the minister can suggest whereby notice of these changes could be made known to these organizations ?