Mr. KAULBACH.

Our government should approach the American government again and ask them to abolish that method of fishing.

Before issuing these licenses I may take the precaution of corresponding witli the American authorities in the matter. and informing them that we have now the power to license this method of fishing and intend to do so unless they will stop it on their side; if they do not, then we will proceed under this law.

Mr. KAULBACH.

I am only referring to purse seines.

Mr. CLARKE.

Under what conditions do you propose to authorize the use of purse seines in Rritish Columbia waters?

The MINISTER OF MARINE A.>D

FISHERIES. It will be the ordinary license surrounded with certain conditions that the department may deem fit to impose.

Mr. CLARKE.

What are the pre-requisites that the department demand from any person applying for a license ?The MINISTER OF MARINE A.\i)FISHERIES. Special regulations are made from time to time regarding licenses, according as circumstances may require. They are altered from time to time on the recommendation of the minister to the

Governor in Council.

Mr. CLARKE.

Can you give us any information as to the regulations in force now ?

Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria).

There are none at present as regards purse seines, because we have not licensed any, but before issuing a license we will prepare certain regulations, which will have to be approved by the Governor General in Council and published.

Mr. CLARKE.

And all who comply with the regulations will be authorized to use purse seines ?

Yes.

Mr. KENDALL.

I think before the minister should take upon himself to interdict entirely the use of purse seines in our waters, on the erroneous grounds, ns I think, that they are seriously diminishing the mackerel, it would be well for the department to make an examination into the whole matter. I wish to tell the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries, if he will turn to the report made to the London Fisheries Commission of 1883, by Prof Huxley, Sir John Lubbock, and another gentleman whose name I forget, he will learn that they lay it down that man is powerless practically to diminish deep sea fish by any means he may use to exterminate them. These professors came to this conclusion after a most complete examination of the conditions surrounding the fisheries of the North Sea and the German Ocean for from 50 to 200 years. It was pointed out that tlie mackerel will leave our coasts tinder certain conditions because the food they feed upon disappears, that the foot! disappears because certain vegetation disappears, and that the vegetation disappears because certain currents are changed. If that is so, I think it is scarcely worth while for the government to listen to folk lore in reference to this matter. It would be far better to examine into the matter scientifically and arrive at a conclusion that will have a solid basis before any action is taken. I have observed the fisheries on the Atlantic coast for some years. I know that in 1889 more mackerel re-appeared on the Nova Scotian coast than probably have ever been caught by mankind in the history of the world. The same thing occurred last year.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

They reappeared in considerable numbers since then, did they not-in 1899, or thereabouts ?

Mr. KENDALL.

I do not know about 1S99, but they came in last year.

Mr. KAULBACH.

They reappeared last year in larger numbers than usual. My hon. friend from Pictou (Mr. Bell) says that they appear every year, but not in such large numbers as they did last year. The main object of the prevention of the use of purse seines in Atlantic waters was that the Americans would come, together with some of our own vessels, and capture fish outside

of the three-mile limit, thus preventing those who fish in competition with them from the shore, from getting a catch at all, because, the moment purse seines are used outside of the three-mile limit, in deep water the fish will disappear altogether. They are driven away from the shore and they will not reappear again during the season. _

Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) I decidedly object to allowing the Americans a privilege on our coast that cannot be enjoyed by our own fishermen. The Ameri-' cans will come, as they did this spring, and take home large cargoes of mackerel caught off the coast of Nova Scotia in their purse seines. They will always take advantage of the opportunity of coming within the three-mile limit whenever there is not one of our own cruisers on the coast to prevent them. There is no doubt that they adopt that method of poaching whenever' they get the opportunity. Our own people have purse seines and they sometimes prosecute the mackerel fishery in that way. 1 do not think that there is any chance of any correspondence that may take place with the American government being effective as to the prohibition of the use of purse seines. They have too much interest and too much money invested in vessels and seines employed in the catching of fish to listen to anything that can be said by our government against their present method of catching mackerel. I think it is quite a hardship just now that we should prevent our own fishermen from adopting the same method that the Americans enjoy at the present time, because, I know that there are firms in Halifax which have purse seines and vessels to prosecute the fishery and it would be quite a hardship to adopt any law by which we should prevent them from enjoying the privilege which hitherto they have enjoyed.

Mr. MORRISON.

Would the hon. member for West Toronto (Mr. Clarke) kindly repeat the last question which he put to the hon. minister ? I confess I did not quite grasp the point of it nor yet the answer of the hon. minister.

Mr. CLARKE.

I wanted to learn from the hon. minister what would be the conditions under which licenses would be issued, and I understood from the hon. minister's reply that they would be issued under certain regulations prepared by the department here, and that all who applied under these regulations would without discrimination have licenses issued to them, that there would be no discrimination in the issue of licenses to all who complied with the regulations of the department. Am I correct in so understanding the hon. minister?

They would have to conform with the regulations. The regulations will

probably determine how many licenses will be issued for a certain space. We cannot pile them one upon another. It depends necessarily on what will be the recommendation of those who know exactly how this law will work out. Surely the hon. gentleman (Mr. Clarke) does not expect the department to grant licenses at random. The regulations would have to provide for the territory where the applicants are allowed to fish. This is a special way of fishing and these purse seines are very large. The regulations would have to provide that so many purse seines may be used within a certain space.

Mr. CLARKE.

Does the department propose to issue these purse seine licenses to a limited number of people and to discriminate against other people who may make application for them ? Do I understand that the hon. minister will determine from amongst the number of applicants for permission to use purse seines who shall be permitted to use them and who shall not be permitted to use them ?

I never said anything of the kind.

Mr. CLARKE.

That is what the hon. minister has been saying all the time.