Mr. Castle. The statement I have is a statement of the amount of grain that went from the west by rail as compared with the amount that -went by water, and that is the point with which we are concerned and with which we have to deal in connection with this argument. Ntnv, the figures I have given do not include the shipment of flour, and the advantage which wheat has in shipment by water is not applicable to flour in the same degree. 1 find in the Inter-State Commerce Commission report for 1901 (page 13) that the subject is fully discussed, and it is pointed out that when it comes to the shipment of flour, the water route has not the same advantage over the rail route that it has in the shipment of wheat. It is well known by those who ship these commodities, that the water route cannot compete in the same degree with the all rail route in the shipment of flour. I do not think there is a difference of opinion as to that. Now, a very large quantity of flour will be shipped from the Nortli-west Territories and Manitoba as time goes on. I do not think that it ever can be said that any large percentage of the crop will be shipped in the shape of flour, but no doubt an enormous quantity of flour will be shipped, a quantity which will furnish an appreciable traffic for a railway. I find further in connection with these shipments, that there is a very substantial am-272 ' .
ount of wheat that goes from different points by rail as opposed to the water route. 1 will give these figures, not with the object of showing that the facts will be paralleled in connection with the railway we are speaking of. but I will give the information because it bears upon this discussion, and as I think, because it will lead to a certain conclusion in connection with it. From the city of Chicago in the year 1901, 31,523,000 bushels of wheat went by lake and rail, and 13,969,000 bushels went by all rail. In 1902, from the city of Chicago 22,000,000 bushels went by lake and rail, and 8,190,000 bushels went all rail. This will show that the lake and rail route even when most advantageously situated lias not by any means yet a monopoly of the business. Now, let us take the shipments of flour. In the year 1902, 1,0S6,000 barrels of flour went from Chicago by rail and lake, and 4,752,000 barrels went all rail, showing that when it comes to the shipment of flour the railway has a great advantage.
We have some times very indefinite ideas as to what rates could be made by railways when they want to make a good rate, and when they get down to a competition basis and find they cannot get any more. I shall give two or three rates as an illustration of what railways can do. I am not going to say that this new railway will open with a rate of this kind, I am not going to say that this railway will carry all its business on a rate of this kind ; but the railway we are going to build is going to be a good railway ; it is going to be just for the express purpose of carrying heavy loads and giving low rates, and being able to compete with a low rate. Therefore it is proper for us to consider what low rates have been given and can be given on similar commodities as those which we shall haul, in other parts of the continent. I find that the average distance from Kansas city to Chicago by the three roads : The Santa
Fe, the Burlington, and the Rock Island is 488 miles. By the report of the Inter-State Commerce Commission for 1901 (page 15) there was in the previous year a rate of five cents per hundred pounds between Kansas city and Chicago. If you take the distance from Winnipeg to St. John via the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway you will find that the equivalent rate from Winnipeg to St. John would be 111 cents per bushel, and if they can haul wheat for 111 cents a bushel they can get plenty of it to haul. The Inter-State Commerce Commission report for 1900 (page 22) points out that there had been previously a rate from Buffalo to New York of two and a half cents per bushel. That is not the average rate upon which the wheat is carried, but that was a rate which obtained and under which immense quantities of wheat were carried, and which the railway companies were prepared to maintain if circumstances did not alter. The average distance from Buffalo to New
York by six routes is 443-12 miles, and on this basis the rate from Winnipeg to St. John would be 10-56 cents. Now, to come nearer home, during the past four years the Canada Atlantic Railway has hauled grain from Depot Harbour to Montreal as follows : highest rate four and a half cents; lowest rate two and a quarter cents. There is a break in the route from Depot Harbour to Montreal. It is all rail to Coteau and then there is from 42 to 45 miles of water-carriage to Montreal. This rate is what the Canada Atlantic Company charged to haul it over the all rail route and then tranship it and take it down the 45 miles and deliver it at Montreal. The transhipment and the handling and the carrying for the 43 or 45 miles was certainly as expensive to them as it would have been if they had their own line into Montreal and had taken it through by rail.-I fancy there is no doubt that if they had their own line into Montreal they would prefer to carry it in, rather than tranship it and take it 45 miles by water. The com-paris.u therefore is a fair comparison. The distance from Depot Harbour to Montreal is 38S miles, and as I have said, the Canada Atlantic Railway during the past four years has hauled grain from Depot Harbour to Montreal ; highest, four and a half cents a bushel ; lowest, two and a quarter cents per bushel. If you take the lowest rate of two and a quarter cents, then on that basis the rate from Winnipeg to St. John via the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway would be 10-85 per bushel. Now, I want to compare that. I talked with a prominent member of the Winnipeg Grain Exchange the day before yesterday, and I asked him, how that 10 85 cent rate would compare with the rates which he is now paying from Winnipeg to New York by lake and rail. He tells me that, taking into account the rate by lake and the rate by rail, and a small additional charge for extra insurance which they have to pay by reason of this mixed carriage, the rate to-day from Winnipeg to New York is 10j cents. And, mark you, if the proposed railway can haul wheat as cheaply as the Canada Atlantic line, it can carry it from Winnipeg to St. John for 10-85 cents per bushel. My hon. friend says in emphatic terms that this railway is not going to haul any wheat. I do not say whether it is or not; but the hon. gentleman must get over these figures before he can convince the public that it is not. They are set forth in the official report, except as regards the Canada Atlantic, which I procured privately, and, as they are in accord with the information received respecting the Canada Atlantic, there can be no question of their accuracy.
When I speak of the traffic which this railway is going to handle, I point to the fact that 1.000 miles of this line from Quebec to Winnipeg are going to be in the province of Ontario and the whole merchandise traffic which now goes by rail from Grand