Mr. Speaker, with reference to the transportation commission which my hon. friend the leader of the opposition (sir. Borden, Halifax) called my attention yesterday, I have to inform my hon. friend and the House that after the intimation by Sir Wm. Van Horne of his inability to accept the position of chairman of the commission, we applied to another gentleman to take the place. I have reason to believe that we shall have his official acceptance, and that the commission will be issued tomorrow.

Mr. WM. J. ROCHE (Marquette).

Before the Orders of the Day are called, I desire to draw the attention of the right hon. Prime Minister to an order moved for by me and passed on the 1st day of June, which has not yet been fulfilled. It was for a return with reference to the appointment of members of parliament to positions of emolument under the Crown.

Mr. E. F. CLARKE (West Toronto).

1 beg also to draw the attention of the Prime Minister to the fact that a return with regard to Intercolonial Railway passes, moved for by me in March, 1902, has not been brought down.

I will make a note of these returns.

Hon. WE ROSS (Victoria, N.S.).

stead of iron. They would have to be renewed and renewed in a great many instances.

The position was one of difficulty. The chief engineer was desirous of avoiding all cause of difference with the commissioners ; but his deliberate opinion was on record. The ground assumed by him had not been lightly taken, and the more the subject was considered by him, the more convinced he felt of the correctness of the principles of construction which he had advocated. No argument, however, which he could advance, appeared to have the least weight with the commissioners. They had determined to make certain changes ; that the recommendations of the chief engineer should be set aside ; and that iron should not be used, but that timber should take its place.

In January, 1869, the chief engineer made his first appeal in the matter, to the premier, Sir John A. Macdonald, and he submitted at length the arguments why iron and not wood should be used. This letter was referred to the commissioners in the usual course. It has never been replied to ; and the arguments advanced in that communication remain to this day without refutation.

He was not then treated with the ordinary courtesy that was due him of having his letters answered,, because, notwithstanding that his communications were of such great importance and that they were from so important a man, it was not deemed worth while to reply to them.

But the decision of the commissioners was sustained. Five of the bridges were, however, exempted from the principle originally laid down by the commissioners ; otherwise, the order was given that all the bridges should be built of wood.

In May, 1870, the chief engineer recurred to the question, in a statement prepared for submission to parliament. A complete list of the bridges was given, and it was there set forth that the cost of constructing them of iron would fie but slightly in excess of building them of wood, and accordingly he recommended that iron should be used.

The railw'ay commissioners still adhered to the view they had previously expressed, for, in a majority report, signed by Messrs. Brydges, Chandler and McLelan, they repeated the recommendation that, with the exception of five bridges named, wood should be used throughout the line. This report is dated July 3. Mr. Walsh, however, the remaining commissioner, and the chairman of the board, on July 5, gave his opinion in favour of iron. The matter was thus again brought before the government, and on July 7, an Order in Council was passed, affirming the decision of the majority that wood should be used. The chief engineer took another opportunity of appealing to the authorities on the subject. On July 25, he wrote to the premier, Sir John A. Macdonald, and on August 22, to the commissioners. In the latter communication he asked a delay of ten days for some work in progress, so that the matter could be reconsidered by the government.

In September, Mr. C. J. Brydges, one of the commissioners, addressed, on his own account, a commuiiication to the Privy Council on this subject. He argued that the fear of wooden bridges catching fire was groundless ; that, in his experience of eighteen years as a railway manager, he had known no instance of a wooden Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria). '

bridge having been injuriously affected through the cause assigned. He contended that the chief engineer's calculations of quantities and cost were erroneous; that iron bridges would cost at least $300,000 more than the sum named, and their introduction would probably add $500,000 to the cost of the line and would cause delay and confusion.

Mr. Fleming replied to the communication. He cited two instances of bridges on the Grand Trunk Railway, under the management of Mr. Brydges, having been destroyed by fire, but a few weeks before the date of Mr. Brydges' statement. Mr. Fleming contended that his estimates were correct, and challenged examination into their accuracy : and he further made a final appeal in favour of iron bridges.

After an examination which established that the estimates of the chief engineer -were correct, the commissioners eventually withdrew their objections and recommended that all bridges over 60 feet span should be built of iron. But, the chief engineer persisted in his efforts to have every bridge, down to the smallest span-24 feet-made of iron, and at last, by an Order in Council, dated May 12, 1871, authority was given to have them so constructed.

With the exception of three structures built of wood by direction of the commissioners, against the protest of the chief engineer, all the bridge spans, of whatever width, throughout the line, have the superstructure of iron.

You will therefore see the big fight that the engineer had with the commissioners in order to get iron bridges on the Intercolonial Railway instead of wooden ones, but at last he succeeded and he was in the right.

The statement that the new line of railway is to parallel the Intercolonial Railway is just a kind of by-play, because when the facts are inquired into you find that in most instances the two railways are a long distance apart. Mr. W. E. Thompson, a competent engineer, states that for from 20 to 100 miles they are 35 miles apart, and in some cases they are 60 miles apart, and so on. The new line of railway runs through a well-wooded and well-watered country, and it will open up a territory for settlement through New Brunswick and Quebec that will be occupied by the people of both provinces. The French people of the province of Quebec are attached to their homes and are not fond of emigrating, and when they find in their neighbourhood opportunities to earn a livelihood they will readily avail of these opportunities. The French Canadians are the only people on the continent of America who have fulfilled the command of the Lord : to multiply and replenish the earth. They have done that to a larger degree than any other people in British North America, and when they find that this railway will open up a well-wooded and well-watered country they will settle along its line. This new road will pass through seven thickly settled counties in the province of Quebec, and as it is separated by long distances from other railways, there will always be a considerable amount of local traffic that will go to the advantage of that road. I shall not enter into the details

of this great scheme that has been promulgated by this government, further than to say that it has my entire approval. At the outset I was foolishly carried away with the idea of government ownership and government management, but I have found that 1 was mistaken. I read the history of the Australian government railways, and I found that they had to send to Montreal for a Mr. Tait to go to Australia to manage their railroads and to try if he could stop the loss of $5,000 a day which they were incurring by the operation of government railways in that country.

The history of the intercolonial Railway in the past shows us that that railway was not run on business principles, but, on the contrary, that it was run according to the interests of the different political parties, and was to a considerable extent used as a political hack. To the credit of the late Minister of Railways (Hon. Mr. Blair) be it said that he has done more to take that road out of politics than any other minister who ever had control of it. The management of the Intercolonial Railway in former days was not creditable to any government or to any party. If a railway conductor or any other employee was suspected of having Liberal leanings, he would be sent out of the district on polling day so that he could not cast his vote, but I know that there was no interference of that kind by the Minister of Railways (Hon. Mr. Blair), or by those under him, during the last two elections. I have nothing to say against the gentlemen w'ho manage the Intercolonial Railway, and I can say that for my own part I have received from them every fair consideration. I am in the unfortunate position of representing a county 120 miles long, bounded by the ocean on one side and the Bras d'Or lakes on another, and that whole county has only eight miles of railway. My friends from Prince Edward Island are like the horse leach, and it is : Give, give, with them all the time ; and when they ask for more railways, and more steamboat communication, and more wharfs it is time for me to speak up for my own county and to look forward to the time when the government will interest themselves in building a railway from the rich, fertile parts of Inverness county, through Margaree and through the fertile valley of Middle river and Baddeck. I look forward with interest to the time when something of this kind will be done, but meantime the government have quite enough in hand to see this new road opened up and in working order. No person can foretell or foresee what the future of this great railway is going to be. The opposition to the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway came largely from the people of Ontario, and the opposition! to the present project comes from the same source. The hon. member for Colchester (Mr. Gourley) suggested that some of the people of Ontario should go down

to Truro to have their minds enlarged and to be instructed in the duties of citizenship, in dealing with public questions. I think it would be well that they should take broader views on questions of this kind. I believe it will be found that little objection will be raised by the people of Nova Scotia, to the building of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway ; the representatives from Nova Scotia as a rule are broad-minded and they are always willing to support what they consider to be great improvements in the country. The attempt is made to frighten us with the bugbear of debt, debt, debt. I heard that cry for eight years in the province of Nova Scotia ; the debt was increasing, we were going to be taxed and going to be ruined. Now is there any person in this House, any person with intelligence, who will say that a man, woman or child in the Dominion of Canada will ever be called upon to pay a cent for the sup port of this great railway ? The government of Canada is quite capable of building this railway and it will be built in a way that will be satisfactory to the people of Canada, without a claim being made upon a single individual, and the persons who will go about the country preaching that this is going to be a cause of debt and that people are going to be called upon for taxes for this railway, have too low an instinct to be public men, and they should be hooted o.ut of society, because they know that, when they are preaching such politics as that, they are not telling the truth.

The hon. member for Peel (Mr. Blain) asked why a railway was not built along the Ottawa river. If he would go up the Gatineau lie would find a railway there built quite close to the Gatineau river, bringing down the products of the farm and the forest in that country into the city of Ottawa and when this railway is built through a rich and fertile country it will be found that villages, towns and cities will spring up in what is now a wilderness.

I should like to read to the House what Mr. Hawkes, of Carnduff, Assa., a leading Conservative, says :

The Grand Trunk Pacific Railway will, in my humble opinion, be a boon to Canada at large, and to no part of Canada more than to the Ter>-ritories. As an old resident of the Territories, I welcome it as the best and most encouraging event that has ever crossed the horizon of the prairie country, and if I might venture a word of advice to my fellow residents in the Territories, it is to study the matter on its merits and refuse to allow any more questions of party to influence them when the development, and to a large extent the whole future of the Territories are in the balance, for if we do not get this road, what else is there in sight that will do one tithe as much for us as we may reasonably expect from this trunk road.

Wier, a member of the legislative assembly of Quebec, addressing the members of the Manufacturers' Association of Montreal on the resources of northern

Quebec, took occasion to quote, with respect to the wood and clay belt north of the height of land, the very reports now being quoted in defence of the Quebec-Winnipeg project. Mr. Weir made this remarkable citation from the meteorological records :

The average temperature Irom May to October, inclusive, is one degree warmer at Moose Factory on James bay, than- at Dalhousie, in. New Brunswick, and twenty-one degrees warmer than at Rimouski, on the lower St. Lawrence. Abitibi, the centre of the clay j>elt, is seven degrees warmer still. In the matter of snowfall Abitibi has 105'5 inches in the year, Montreal 139:2 inches.

Mr. Weir quoted from the reports of Mr. O'Sullivan, the Quebec explorer, this description of the Hudson's Bay factor's garden at Wasanipi in the clay belt:

I never saw better cabbage, carrots and turnips, and he gave me samples of wheat which compare favourably with wheat grown in any other part of the province. The surrounding country is all level, rich clay land. At Moose river, Mr. O'Sullivan found in Bishop Newn-ham's garden, * splendid celery, tomatoes, vegetable-marrow' weighing 15 to 40 pounds each, kohi-rabi, carrots, parsnips, turnips beets, pease, beans, cabbage, cauliflower, rhubarb, red and black currants, lettuce, radishes, herbs, all a good size, some not to be beaten anywhere.

Mr. Weir also quoted the following information furnished by the hon. the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Sifton) as to the extent of this country.

Proceeding westward from Quebec, one comes across, according to reports made to the Geological Survey, 3,000,000 acres of agricultural land fit for settlement in the St. Maurice river section. In the Upper Gatineau district the country is generally level, with occasional rocky hills, sandy loam soil, timber abundant. The whole country is a flat undulating plain, with good flats of farming land. And again, further West, back of the rocky land through which the Lake Superior division of the Canadian Pacific now runs, there is a belt of fine agricultural land, clay and sandy loam, which forms part of the great clay basin of Moose river, and its numerous tributaries, which take their rise near the Canadian Pacific line, north of Lakes Huron and Superior. The headwaters of the rivers are well timbered, and the country is described as an undulating plain, gently sloping towards James bay. Soil is good for farming throughout the greater portion of the country.

I think enough has been said to prove that this railroad is going to pass, not through a scrubby, bare country, full of muskegs, morasses and swamps, but through a rich, cultivable tract. The hon. member for South Lanark (Hon. Mr. Haggart), in describing the condition of the country, reminded me of the spies sent out to spy out the land. They came back with an evil report; but when the honest, truthful spies were sent out they found very different conditions; they came with a branch of the grapes of Eschol. so large that they had to be carried on a pole, on the shoulders of two other men, which showed the character of the country they were to occupy.

Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria).

This reminds me of the speech of my hon. friend from North Renfrew (Mr. Mackie), who went to that country, and saw for himself the forests of great pine trees there. Admiring these splendid trees, he would naturally say : I would like to have a railroad into this region. I might make selection of a limit here and make another fortune to add to what I have already made in the timber business. Why it is the timber business that has built the city of Ottawa and has made its millionaires. And a new generation of millionaires will be made out of the vast country through which this road Is going to pass. Let us not be discouraged as to the result of this great undertaking. I was amused at the remarks of the hon. member for North Grey (Mr. Thomson). That hon. gentleman said that the result of building this road would be to make multimillionaires in the future. Well, the result of the building of the Canadian Pacific Railway has been the making of titled lords on the other side of the Atlantic. And if this road is going to be so successful that fortunes of this kind are to be made out of it, the fact that these results are looked for is a very good omen for the future of the undertaking. Then, hon. gentlemen on the other side enter upon the most elaborate calculations as to the cost of this road. They throw millions of dollars here and there as though they were matters of no concern. Sometimes they tell us this road is going to cost the government .$150,000,000, at other times it is to be $250,000,000, and so it has gone on until one hon. gentleman has reached the sum of $500,000,000. These calculations are utterly without basis, for not one of these hon. gentlemen has gone into that district to learn what the nature of the country is or what the road is likely to cost. The only man who has given the calculation correctly is the Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Fielding), whose figures can be always accepted as correct. That hon. gentleman secures expert information before lie attempts any calculations of cost. I do not think it is necessary to say much about this road, more than has already been said. We had first the Prime Minister (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier), with his magnificent speech, which I am happy to say is being freely distributed throughout the length and breadth of this Dominion. And I am proud to say that I have sent a copy of it to every elector in the county of Victoria, whether he be Tory or Liberal. Then we had the speech of the hon. gentleman from North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton), who went thoroughly into the details of the calculations with respect to this road. Then we heard the hon. Minister of the Interior (Hon. Mr. Sifton), who made one of the ablest speeches, perhaps the ablest speech, delivered on this subject. His knowledge of the country gave him that advantage of information 'which many others did not possess. Then we had the speech of my hon. friend the Minister

of Finance, wlio always speaks well and with full consideration. Everything he says can be relied upon as gospel truth. He exaggerates nothing. What he says is within the bounds of truth in every instance.

But hon. members of the opposition were perplexed. The scheme was so complete, the contract drawn up so carefully, that they could not raise any reasonable objection to it. They did not know what to do. They were like the two boys who were upset in the river. As they clung to their boat, one said to the other : ' Can you pray T ' No,' was the answer, ' I can't pray.' ' Well,' said the first, ' something must be done, and

that

soon.' The opposition were in such

a plight that they did not know what to do. The result was that they promulgated a scheme that nobody else understands and that they do not understand themselves. The hon. leader of the opposition had a hard part to piny. But it is a pleasure to compliment that hon. gentleman on the courtesy which he always displays when he addresses this House. He is too much of a gentleman to say anything unworthy of a gentleman. I wish I could say as much for the ex-Minister of Railways (Hon. Mr. Blair), when he accused his former friend the Prime Minister, of being influenced by Senator Cox. Is there any man in this House having any claim to gentlemanly feeling or aspiration who would think for a moment that the Prime Minister of Canada could be influenced by any Senator in his conduct in regard to this undertaking ? Why, the man is too high above anything of that kind for it not to be even thought of, and the man who says such a thing descends to personalities that are unworthy of a member of this House.

The hon. member for Peel was surprised at the stand taken by us on this side of the House with respect to the late Minister of Railways, when that hon. gentleman threw in his influence with hon. gentlemen opposite. If the hon. member for Peel were to leave his party and come over to this side of the House, what 'would his friends think of him ? What would they say of him V They would say, of him everything that was bad, and very properly so. The late Minisister of Railways and Canals professed to be a Liberal, and I sometimes think that if he were asked to be the head of this proposed commission, we should find him still supporting the government, instead of conducting himself as he has done. He gave us one speech and then he ran away as if he were afraid to face the members of this House again. No doubt he had in mind the old saying :

He who fights and runs away May live to fight another day ;

But he who fights until he's slain Will never live to fight again.

Carried.

Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) No, it is not carried. But this railway scheme is

going to be carried, carried by a large majority, and carried by the unanimous vote of the supporters of the government. Let the members of the opposition lay that unction to their restless souls. We are going to carry this measure and this road is going to be built, and I hope myself to have a pleasant ride over it from Moncton to the Pacific coast. We do not know the possibilities which are in store for us in this country. We do not know what the requirements of our great railway will be ten years hence ; and it is in order to meet some of those requirements, it is in order to provide requisite facilities for carrying our surplus agricultural products to our seaports, that this road is to be built. People indulge in all sorts of pessimistic theories. They say that no wheat can be carried over this line, that it will never pay, but let the road be built with easy grades and let the rates of freight be as low to Moncton as they are to Portland, and you will see a large portion of the products of the North-west going over this road to St. John and Halifax. Once you build, the road to Moncton, then you have to reduce the length of the Intercolonial Railway, as I have said, you have to level the grades so that Heavy loads may be carried with ease and passenger trains run with greater speed, and then you will find trade going to the proper channel. Take the case of a hundred cars of cattle. At present these cattle go to Moncton, but by going to St. John they would save about four hours time, and by going to Halifax thej' would save on the distance to Liverpool or London some 250 miles. And once they got on board a steamer at Halifax, whether in the middle of the night or day, that steamer could sail at once without any reference to the tide. I am not going to say a word against the port of St. John. Perhaps I did so before, and I wish to take it back, for the people of St. John deserve a great deal of credit for their enterprise in improving their harbour. It has been considerably improved since I was there. I remember when I had a barque loading there for Melbourne, and at that time St. John was not the best harbour in the world, but great improvements have been made since, and greater will follow, and I am sure that there is not a man in this House from Nova Scotia who would oppose any grant or any subsidy for the improvement of that harbour.

The ex-Minister of Railways and Canals spoke about the destruction of the machine shops at Moncton. They were going to be dismantled and sold as scrap iron. Why, that is just like the old story we used to hear about the tall chimnies which were going to be smokeless when the present government introduced its tariff. But Moncton, Sir, will in ten years double its population; and instead of its machine shops being dismantled, they will be enlarged to meet the requirements of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway. I am not afraid that this new rail-

way is going to injure the Intercolonial Railway, because in the winter the produce of Ontario goes largely over the Intercolonial Railway to Halifax to be shipped thence to the west and east and elsewhere. A wrong impression, I am afraid, prevails among Ontario members that the Intercolonial Railway was built for the benefit of the people of Nova Scotia. In my opinion, it has been of more advantage to the people of Ontario because Ontario sends all her manufactured goods in the winter down to the maritime provinces over the Intercolonial Railway, and when Ontario wants to send exports to Trinidad and Jamaica and other British West India ports, she sends them to Halifax. Our steamers there are loaded with flour and other products of Ontario for export, so that the Intercolonial Railway has been built for the benefit of the Ontario people just as much as for the benefit of the people of Nova Scotia. Of course we benefit by the local traffic largely, but we do not benefit by the traffic going west, because the people of Ontario and Quebec do not buy anything from us. The fact is that the people of Nova Scotia have to export their products to the West Indies in order to procure the money with which to buy the goods that they require from Ontario and Quebec. Some people are carried away with the idea that the rates are too low. is there any man in this House who would want the rates on the Intercolonial Railway to be raised ? If they were raised, that would be to the injury of the western provinces, because they are the ones who benefit by the low rates.

Mr. TAYLOR.

Does the hon. gentleman say that the people of Ontario and Quebec do not buy anything from Nova Scotia V

Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) I am not aware that they buy anything.

Mr. TAYLOR.

Why, hundreds of thousands of dollars are paid for iron and coal brought to Ontario and Quebec from Nova Scotia. I am a large purchaser of iron from Nova Scotia every year.

Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) That is quite a different thing. There is no coal coming to Ontario, I am sorry to say, from Nova Scotia.

Mr. TAYLOR.

We buy lots of steel and iron and coal too.

Hon. Mr. ROSS (Victoria, N.S.) It is news to me that coal from Nova Scotia is sent to Ontario I am very glad that that* is the case.

Mr. TAYLOR.

If it will require fifteen trains per day of thirty cars each in 1911 to move tlie products of the west to the sea, I think it can be fairly argued that either one of these railways could run that number of trains if they had the equipment. They could run fifteen trains a day, yes, they could run twenty-five trains upon their railways every day. We have now two existing railways and each one of these railways if equipped could run at least fifteen trains per day over their lines, and so we would find by investigation that the railways already existing in that country, if properly equipped would be able to move the quantity, to put it in the mildest possible form, that the hon. minister argues that will be required to be moved at a time as far as postponed from to-day as the year 1911. He was pleased to refer to the cost of the alternate scheme proposed by the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax), and it was argued by hon. members on the government side of the House that this scheme would in all probability cost far more than the scheme which is advocated by the government. I would point out to hon. gentlemen which is an important feature that for every dollar which it is proposed to be expended on this scheme offered by the hon. leader of the opposition and which is supported by hon. members on this side of the House wo will have one dollar of assets and that there is a broad distinction between that and the scheme which is proposed by the government. The scheme as proposed by the government is one on which it has been estimated that $150,000,000 will be expended by the country and after that expenditure is made the road will be handed over to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company for a period of at least fifty years. I was somewhat amused a day or two ago in listening to the speech of the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Logan), when, in concluding his remarks upon this question, he was pleased to use the following language as reported in the city press:

He concluded by saying that the Liberal party would go to the country with the words, ' Laurier, prosperity and victory," emblazoned on its banner.

It occurred to my mind when I read the report of the speech of the hon. gentleman that his position was similar to the position of the Irishman who was -watching a procession passing down the street with the words emblazoned upon Its banner ' God bless Ireland.' I think the remark made by the Irishman at that time is very apropos when applied to the statement made by the hon. member for Cumberland. In referring to the words upon the banner as I have to the words to be emblazoned upon the banner of the Liberal party, the Irishman made the remark that the banner was not complete, but that there should have been added the -words

Mr. PORTER.

' God save Canada from the likes of ns.' There is an old fable in which it is related of an individual who was the possessor of one of those long eared quadrupeds of the horse family that he had occasion to make a lengthy journey through the country and in making that journey was obliged to pass over a bridge of considerable length. The bridge was very unsafe but the possessor of the animal had no knowledge whatever of its insecurity. It is also related of that individual that he possessed a very vacillating mind and with his animal and his vacillating mind he started upon his journey. And it is related that he got fairly well across the bridge before he discovered bis weakness and the peril in which he and his animal stood ; and his vacillating mind did not come readily to his rescue, and he sought the advice and the assistance of His friends. Those before him urged him to come on, those behind bim urged him to turn back, and in his endeavour to compromise between the conflicting advice that was given by his friends on the one side and on the other, it is related that the old man in trying to please everybody pleased nobody and lost his ass into the bargain.

Now, Sir, the old fable fairly illustrates the position that the government of the day will occupy after they have passed this measure. With the Trans-Canada on one hand, with the interests of the supporters of the government from the maritime provinces on the other, and with the Grand Trunk Railway in the middle, pulling in all directions, I venture to believe that the government will repeat the experience of the old man to whom I have just referred. I used the expression ' after the government had passed this measure,' for, Sir, I entertain no reasonable doubt but that the government will, notwithstanding the want of merit of this measure, and notwithstanding any opposition that may be offered from this side of the House ; they will pass that measure by the force of their majority, and that, irrespective of merit or any consideration of the advantage or disadvantage it may be to tbe country. In the discussion of this question it has pleased the government supporters to urge upon the House and especially upon the opposition, that this Bill should be considered apart entirely from every political consideration and upon broad national grounds.