Mr. J. M. DOUGLAS (East Assiniboia).

Before the Orders of the Day are called, I wrish to ask the attention of the House to a very serious advance in the rates upon wheat in the elevators, that has been announced by the officials of the Canadian Pacific Railway and of the Canadian Northern Railway. I wish to read from a special despatch to the ' Globe ' of September 9th :

Winnipeg, Sept. 9.-A sensation was caused in grain circles to-day when it was announced that the Winnipeg Grain Exchange had been notified by C. C. Castle, warehouse commissioner, that he had been served with a notice

by the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Great Northern Railway companies that they intend to increase the present rates for storage of grain in their terminal elevators at the lake front to the following Elevating, including fifteen days' storage and insurance against loss by are, per bushel, 3 cents ; storage for each succeeding thirty days and insurance against loss by are, per bushel, 3 cents. No charge for cleaning and storing.

The railway proposition is considered by the grain men to be the most extortionate, and in their opinion may be summed up in the following statement by a prominent exporter, who stated that with the information at present in his hands the situation is about as follows :-

' In the exporting season the average time of *wheat in a terminal elevator would be seven days, for which \ cent per bushel is proposed to be charged, or at the rate of 1 cent per bushel per month, or 12 cents per bushel per annum. Taking wheat at an average of SO cents per bushel at the terminal, this would be 15 per cent. The actual rates of insurance at present are three-quarters per cent per annum on the wooden terminals, three-quarter per cent on the steel tanks, and one-half per cent on the little elevators. The excess proposed to be charged amounts to from six times to thirty times the present actual cost.'

A meeting of the exchange ha3>

been called for to-morrow to consider this move on the part of the railway companies. The exchange has for some time past asked the railway companies to themselves insure the grain stored In the terminal elevators, in order to prevent the great loss and waste of insurance which results from owners of grain not knowing in advance into which elevators their grain will be unloaded, necessitating the carrying by them of share insurance in the several elevators at Lake Superior.

It is charged by several members of the trade that the increased rates are the direct result of decreased rates insisted upon for carriage of grain between Manitoba points and Port Arthur.

I do not wish to weary the House by reading any further on the subject. I read this to show the necessity of something being done in the near future to correct an evil like this, wihere the whole trade is absolutely in the hands of those two railway companies. In this connection I would call the attention of the House to the fact that while large sums of money have been expended upon the harbours and rivers in the old provinces, a mere item lias as yet been expended by the present government in Manitoba and the North-west Territories. I would call attention to the fact, for example, that this government has spent $829,147 upon harbours and rivers in Quebec ; in Ontario, $1,206,315 : whilst in Manitoba, only $66,209.80 have been spent, and in the North-west Territories, $13,486. These are the total amounts which this government has expended on harbours and rivers since 1896 to 1-901. This might form an argument whereby we might reasonably ask this government in the near future to provide better elevator accommodation in the North-west so as to counteract the evil which at present exists at the lakes.

Mr. SPEAKER.

Is the hou. gentleman going to conclude with a motion ?

'Mr. DOUGLAS. I have no desire to

speak further on the subject.

Mr. F. D. MONK (Jacques Cartier).

Before the Orders of the Day are called, I wish to direct the attention of the government to a state of affairs existing in the Yukon, which it seems to me calls for their immediate intervention. I have received this

morning some newspapers from the Yukon, with an expressed desire that I should point out to the government the condition of affairs in that country, and I deem it my duty to do so, and will conclude with a motion, if necessary. I may say that I am prompted to do this because of the request that has been made to me, and because of the unfortunate absence from this parliament of the hon. member who represents that remote district. I think, from the report I see in these newspapers, the truth of which I have no reason to doubt, that it is urgent that the government should supplement in some way the instructions which were issued to the commissioners, Mr. Justice Britton, and his associates ; giving, if not a wider scope to the inquiry, at any rate Instructions to the commissioners that the gist of the instructions already given, I have no doubt obliges them to extend rather than to curtail the scope of the inquiry. I conclude from the reports in these papers of the proceedings, that there is widespread dissatisfaction throughout the Yukon at the ruling of the commissioner, that there is widespread dissatisfaction among the miners, of which we have had ample evidence in this House at the time the Treadgold concession was discussed. I see that this dissatisfaction has culminated in the calling of a mass meeting, a state of affairs whicli I think is very much to be regretted in connection with this inquiry. Now there is no reason whatever to doubt the fidelity of the reports of the proceedings before the commission, whatever opinion one may hold as to the comments which these newspapers contain in regard to these proceedings. I will read to the House samples of the way in which the proceedings are being conducted, and I will be glad to place these newspapers in the hands of the right hon. gentleman, not to take up the time of the House uselessly in reading them, in order that he may peruse the evidence taken before the commission, and see the way the evidence is being taken, in order that he may iudge for himself whether it is necessary for the government to interfere. T am quoting now from the Dawson ' Daily News ' of Friday. August 21st. 1903 :

Catto and Judge clash.

Dr. Catto and Judge Britton had a lively clash over an allusion to politics which grew

Mr. DOUGLAS.

out of a question put to Mr. Coffey by the doctor. The doctor asked Mr. Coffey if he were Minister of the Interior, or were Mr. Sifton, if he would think it fair to give away public rights without a ' quid pro quo.' Mr. Coffey did not give a direct answer immediately.

The judge asked Doctor Catto if he were trying to find out something about the next member of parliament.

Dr. Catto immediately flushed, and in positive words declared he was disgusted to see an attempt to introduce politics from the bench.

Judge Britton quickly replied that he was disgusted to hear nonsense from the audience.

Dr. Catto declared he was tired of hearing of politics in connection with such matters.

The judge replied that the doctor was making the matter foolish. The doctor replied he was not.

The clash then terminated, and the examination of Mr. Coffey proceeded.

It would seem from the evidence given by Mr. Treadgold that he used these words :

The merchants of Dawson will have to come to me yet. 1 am the government of Canada.

Is that in evidence ?

Mr. MONK.

' No answer,' said Treadgodd. The question was not further urged.

And further on I quote :

Treadgodd threatens.

Treadgold had threatened litigation, but did not say, testified Joslin, that he would oppose Joslin's Bill in parliament.

' We quarrelled in the sense of bargaining. Mr. Treadgold is a good bargainer,' remarked Joslin.

After going into the matter thoroughly, he could see that he would run hazards if he persisted in, the scheme.

Judge Britton wanted to know why.

' Did Treadgold say that he had influence over the members of parliament by which he could prevent you from getting the grant,' asked Woodworth. Mr. Davey objected.

' Treadgold told me that he had considerable influence with the members of parliament,' said Joslin.

' And with the cabinet.'

* Yes, with the government,' answered Joslin.

Judge Britton ruled that the witness need not answer a question if Treadgold said he had any influence with any particular member.

' Treadgold,' said Joslin, ' pointed out that the members of the Privy Council1 were his friends and could not afford to go back on their action because of opposition.

He stated that they would stand by him.

Searching questions by Woodworth were ruled to be Immaterial. . . . Judge Britton refused to admit a statement of Sir Wilfrid Laurier as given in * Hansard.' Dr. Catto wanted to put it in as evidence.

' You will have to bring him here,' said the judge.

' Will you then issue a subpoena for Sir Wilfrid Laurier ? ' asked the doctor with immense gravity.

" I think the one thing wrong with Mr. Tread-gold's grant is that he is not required to begin work within short enough time,' Joslin said in answer to a question. Judge Britton objected to the doctor's system in questioning!

There are on three or four pages of this newspaper of August 24th a number of questions which the court does not seem to have considered within the scope of the inquiry.

I should say

so;

Mr. MONK.

I should think that having seen these questions and read the report of the evidence, if the government is of opinion that the judge by his rulings has a tendency to restrict inquiry, as is claimed by the parties interested ; then it is the duty of the government to supplement the instructions to the commissioners, in order that the inquiry upon the question of the possibility of obtaining water for the miners on more reasonable terms should be gone into most fully. An amendment to the commission should be . made, if that is necessary. The Dawson ' Daily News,' referring to the mass meeting which was called to take into consideration this serious state of affairs, says : .

Mr. MONK.

I fail to see what object my hon. friend (Mr. Monk) can have in view in bringing to the attention of the House the .scurrilous articles of certain newspapers, unless it be in pursuance of the same system which has long prevailed, of trying to fasten upon this administration some wrongdoing in the Yukon. It is nothing new ; these attempts have been made repeatedly. They have all failed, and I make bold to say that this last attempt will fail like all its predecessors. My hon. friend (Mr. Monk) has not told me anything to-day which I did not know. If he has people to inform him in the Yukon, I have also communication with the Yukon.

Mr. MONK.

I do not think my hon. friend has a right to say that I have people to inform me in the Yukon. I received these documents with the request to bring them to the notice of the House.

If my hon. friend objects to the statement that he is being informed by people in the Yukon, I have no objection to withdraw that expression, and substitute another. There are people in the Yukon who are sending these scurrilous newspapers to the members in order to have them brought to the notice of the House. I have seen these papers myself, as I receive a mail from the Yukon. I have people in the Yukon who keep me Informed also. As to the mass meeting which was to take place on the Wednesday following the sending of these papers, I would not be surprised if two or three people met together, and-like the three tailors of Tooley street, who called themselves the people of England-they called themselves the people of the Yukon. The instructions given to the commissioners are ample. As to the manner in which they are performing their duties, it is premature to comment on that; and my hon. friend has not consulted the best side of the duty he has to perform in this House in making himself a re-echo of the scurrilous writings which he has read to-day. When the report is brought down, we shall see whether or not the commissioners have performed their duties properly. But if I may judge of the

manner in which the inquiry is conducted, I cannot find fault with Judge Britton if he declined to admit matters which had nothing to do with the investigation. The instructions given to the commissioners have been laid on the Table of the House, and until their report is made, I am satisfied that nothing more can he done by the government.

Mr. T. S. SPROULE (East Grey).

I have only to say with regard to the right hon. the First Minister's observations about bringing the articles of a scurrilous press before the House, that it is the only channel by which we can get information from that distant quarter of the country ; and if those who are endeavouring to elicit information in regard to that deal are unable to do so because of the obstruction placed in their way, either by the court or the solicitors for the commission, it is quite proper for them to complain of that, and endeavour to bring it to the attention of the government, which is the only power that has a right to extend the scope of the commission. If the information reaches ns through this channel, why should we refrain from using it in this House in our endeavours to secure justice to the people of that territory ? Is there anything wrong in that ? I do not think there is. The right hon. gentleman says the instructions are ample. Well, if we can rely on the evidence given in that paper, it is quite clear that the people are hampered in many cases. Some of the questions asked may be irrelevant, if so, the court should rule them out of order'. But, so far as I can luring my own judgment to bear on the matter, on the spur of the moment, I cannot see any reason for objecting to certain questions which were put for the purpose of bringing out information which it was desirable should be brought out, and which, in the opinion of a great many, would be proper information to place before this House when that commission reports. So that it seems to me that the scope of that commission is scarcely ns wide as it ought to be. However, there is nothing improper in any member of this House representing the people out there who believe that the commission should have a wider scope; and then it is for the government to deal with the matter, according to their best judgment. The right hon. First Minister says he cannot find much fault with the commissioner, Judge Britton ; and he has touched op, several points which it would be interesting to follow' a little further. I have here a very trenchant article which I will not waste the time of the House by reading. It is a report of an address presented to the recently appointed judge in Manitoba, in which the speaker refers very pointedly to this very commission, and makes some very stinging remarks which appear to me to be specially applicable. in view of the information containnon

ed in the paper which has been read. I am sure that if the right hon. First Minister read this letter, he would desire as far ns possible, for the honour of the bench, to avoid mixing up the judiciary of the land with these commissions.

Mr. W. F. McCREARY (Selkirk).

Is the hon. gentleman aware that the gentleman who wrote that letter represents himself and nobody else ?

Mr. SPROTJLE.

I am not aware of it.

Mr. McCREARY.

Read the editorial that follows the letter in the ' Globe,' taken from the Winnipeg ' Free Press,' and you will find out what he represents.

Mr. SPROULE.

It is an address to the judge on the bench ; and to my mind it is very appropriate, in view of what has taken place to-day, and has special application to the very commission which is being criticised in this paper from Dawson. This gentleman was appointed by the bar of Manitoba to make this address, and therefore, I assume that he must be a respectable member of the bar.

Mr. McCREARY.

The article does not state that he was appointed by the bar of Manitoba. The bar of Manitoba knew nothing of these remarks. I say that as a member of the bar of Manitoba, and that bar in due time will repudiate them.