Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

And then if anything should be overlooked in section 16 we can go back and reconsider that. I move-that section 8 he reconsidered.

Section 16 agreed to, and motion to reconsider section 8 agreed to.

On section 8-Eastern division to be built by government.

Mr. BENNETT.

Before this Bill finally passes, I wish to ask if it is intended to insert a clause relative to the employment on the eastern section of Asiatic or other labour by contractors ?

No ; the general Railway Act contains the fair-wage provision, which I think governs the matter.

Mr. BENNETT.

But the question I ask. is : will contractors or subcontractors on the section east of Winnipeg, which is to be built by the government, be permitted or allowed to employ Chinese labour ? I do-not think such a case as that will he met by the Railway Act. May I ask, is it the intention of the government to provide legislation to that end ?

They certainly will not he permitted by virtue of any special legislation. The general law of the country on that question is not altered at all. Whatever can be done to-day will he done under this Bill. My hon. friend the Minister of Justice is taking that under consideration, hut there is nothing special in this legislation touching that question at all.

Mr. BENNETT.

So that there is nothing in this Bill that will preclude or prevent contractors bringing in Chinese, and working them on the construction of this railway ?

Railway contractors under this Bill will he precisely in the same position as railway contractors are to-day, neither better nor worse.

Mr. BENNETT.

In other words, they will he permitted to bring in Chinese labour if they wish ?

If that is the law to-day.

Mr. CLARKE.

My hon. friend has brought up a very important matter, and one on which I do not think we have had a perfectly satisfactory assurance from the hon. minister. Is it a fact that contractors can bring in Chinese labour, and can construct the road partly with Chinese labour ?

Outside of the regulation respecting Chinese coming

into this country, there is no legislation on the subject.

Mr. CLANCY.

In view of the mountains of information so-called which have been laid on the Table, and the very few days that we have had to devote ourselves to looking into these mountains of information, the Minister of Justice will, I am sure, concede that the amendment I am now about to move is quite timely. I propose to move that section 8 be ameneded by adding thereto the following proviso :

Provided, however, that the surveys and plans showing the most favourable route and the beet practicable grades and curvatures that can he obtained, together with an estimate of the cost based thereon, shall be first submitted to parliament for approval.

If we had the information that the House might reasonably expect, there would possibly be no reason for making a provision of that kind in the Bill.

We had laid upon the Table some six or eight days ago a blue-book containing what is said to be the mountains of information which the government had when they decided on this scheme. It consists of about 180 pages, and begins in the city of Quebec and ends at the westerly portion of Ontario. I am going to ask the hon. the Minister of Justice and the acting Minister of Railways, who have no doubt looked into this matter very carefully, to point out, not a mountain, but even a molehill, in this report which gives any reliable information as to the character of the country. All that I can find is some vague general information, obtained some forty, fifty or sixty years ago. To show you how unreliable the information is let me compare it with a report on the same country issued by the Ontario government. I might add that there is absolutely nothing in the report regarding the character of the country as suitable for railway building. Section 5 of this departmental blue-book corresponds almost exactly with section 1 of the report issued by the Ontario government. This is what is said regarding the timber resources, and the extract I am going to quote was used by the hon. the Minister of the Interior in this House a few weeks ago :

Timber.-White and red pine found over the whole region. On the north side of the height of land pine trees measure from eight to nine feet in circumference. White spruce, yellow birch, cedar, also tolerably abundant. Poplar, canoe birch, banksian pine, elm and ash are also reported, and sugar maple and aspen.

Take precisely the same district, beginning at the boundary line between Quebec and Ontarid, and see what the Ontario report says on that very same subject:

There is a little of white pine timber north*

of the height of land, the trees being scattered and inferior of quality. Some small areas of red pine and some jack pine were met with, nearly all of these varieties found being south of Lake Abitibi. The best areas for puipwood

are on Lo'w Bush and Circle rivers, with their tributaries, where it is estimated that an area of ISO square miles will yield an average of seven cords to the acre or about 800,000 cords. Along Little Abitibi river between Harris lake and the boundary the puipwood is estimated at 750,000 cords. A belt reaching from Lower Abitibi lake along the Abitibi river to Long Sault, eighty miles in length will average seven cords to the acre. There are also considerable puipwood areas to the west and north of Lower Abitibi lake.

I have pointed out that the report of the Ontario surveys examination and this report presented to this House are absolutely contradictory- The one declares that there is no pine north of the Height of land, and the other says that there is an abundance, and that there are trees measuring five to nine feet in circumference. That is a fair sample of the information by which we are asked to be guided. Can the Minister of Justice or the acting Minister of Railways point to a single paragraph in this so-called mountains of information which will give any definite idea of the character of the country. We have had no surveys or information of a recent character. What we have is very contradictory; and if we are going to commit the country to a vast expenditure on such meagre information, we will be certainly very derelict in our duty. Let me give an illustration of the attitude of hon. gentlemen opposite on a railway which passes through a country concerning which they seemed to think we had very little or no information. I refer to the short line proposed by the Canadian Pacific Railway from Montreal to St. John. Let me quote from the speech made by the First Minister, which is very applicable to the present case. Upon that occasion it was not at ail settled in the minds of the opposition, although there were some surveys made then, that the line was properly located and that there was sufficient information to warrant the House granting the sum then asked. In 1884 the First Minister moved :

That the said resolution he not now read a second time, hut that it be referred back to a Committee of the Whole with power to amend the same by providing that the route for the line of railway connecting Montreal with the harbours of St. John and Halifax, for which a subsidy of $170,000 a year for fifteen years is provided, should he subject to the approval of parliament.

Now, what we are asking by this amendment is that the information should he had and that, on the basis of that information the scheme should be approved by parliament. Here is another resolution on the same line and on the same subject, moved by the right hon. Prime Minister in the following year, 1885:

In the opinion of this House additional surveys are requisite in order to a stfund decision of the route of the 'Short line of railway, and it would be premature to adopt any line before ' further surveys have been made.

If liou. gentlemen have any respect for their record, surely they will agree that the motion I have moved is timely and necessary under present conditions. If we had any information of a reliable kind, information that would warrant the House in going on, I would say that such a motion as this that I have presented would not be timely. If we were under the necessity of reaching a conclusion at once, we should be compelled to act upon such information as we have. But lion, gentlemen opposite know that this is not a pressing matter, but that the time to gather the information can well be spared. They know that time devoted to the gaining of information will be well spent in the interests of the country, and that it will be wise to make this scheme subject to the approval of parliament when that information is at hand. I inferred from what the Minister of Justice (Hon. Mr. Fitzpatrick) said, and also from what the Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Fielding), who is acting Minister of Railways, said, that those gentlemen regarded it as possible that the eastern section might be found to be an impracticable work; and that, if, after proper examinations are made, it should turn out to be a scheme not in the interest of Canada, the government of the day would be prepared to consider the matter and prepare a scheme that should be more in the interest of the country. I do not say that the Minister of Justice used those words, but that is what I inferred from what he said, and this is what might be expected from any government, even from a government pressing this measure with the undue haste with which this has been pressed from the commencement. There is plenty of time, for the government have placed themselves in such a position that they are not forced to go on with the construction of the eastern section simultaneously with the construction of the western section. The time that will be required for the construction of the eastern section from Winnipeg to Moncton has been variously estimated by lion. gentlemen opposite at from five to seven years. Well, if it is to be seven years before this road will be completed, why should we not have the information necessary to a decision 1 Why should not parliament have the right of reviewing that information when it is before us, and, on the basis of that information, decide whether this is a scheme that should be carried out or not ? I would ask this especially in view of what has been told us by the government's expert. I refer to the hon. member for North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton), who, I am sure will be understood by the country to be the government's expert. Of course, I am not aware, nor is the country aware, that the hon. gentleman ever built a rod pf railway ; they are not aware that he is an engineer ; they are not aware that he has had anything to do, in the larger sense, with the question of trans-

Mr. CLANCY.

portation. Nevertheless, the hon. gentleman is put up as an expert. If we are to have as an expert one who knows nothing about the matter, I do not know whom it would better suit the purposes of the government to put up than the hon. member for North Norfolk. If we should say that the hon. gentleman is an expert, the government can, with perfect truth, declare that he is not, and they can quote views of his, expressed within the last few months diametrically opposed to those which he now expresses. And, if we urge that he is an expert, the government, if they choose to take the responsibility, can with equal truth quote his views in support of an opposite policy. I do not know any hon. gentleman so handy, so useful for the government. If they want an excuse for anything they are doing, they can always find utterances of his on any side of any question.

Mr. CLARKE.

He is a work for the general advantage of Canada.

Mr. CLANCY.

For the general disadvantage of Canada, but for the general advantage of the government. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Charlton) is always on his feet, and the government can always find him where they want him. If they should change their mind about this scheme, we should find the hon. gentleman with all apparent candour, voicing their new opinions. He will not even think it worth while to tell us why he changed. But all we need to know, in order to know that when the government changes its mind he will change his mind, is the hon. gentleman's record in the past. And, when he does change his mind neither excuses nor reasons are looked for. Now, we have absolutely no information on the sub.ie .'t of tliis route. And, when I say that, I do not at all forget that we have this volume on the resources of the country between Quebec and Winnipeg, which has been prepared by the government. But, after hon. members have perused, as I am sure, we have perused with great care, every page of this volume, we find ourselves as much in the dark as ever. True, we have some inferences and opinions of the compiler of the book with regard to that country, but these, of course, may lie as worthless as the conclusions of the hon. member for North Norfolk. We find page after page stating where information can be had, but there is not a particle of information disclosed in the report. We are referred to some reports giving vague information about that country. And when I say that that information is vague, I mean that it is vague as regards the building ofi a railway. We know that the building of a railway was not In the minds of those who carried on these explorations. As hon. gentlemen know all these explorations were made by canoe, following the streams that flow into Hudson bay, but the country between the streams is unexplored. Take the reports

[DOT]of the Ontario government, take the reports ol' the Geological Survey, and any lion, gentleman who has taken the trouble to go through these reports will see that, for the purposes of the scheme that we have before us, these surveys are of the most perfunctory character. They merely refer to the streams, whereas the territory between the streams, It may be hundreds of miles across, has never been explored and little [DOT]or nothing is known about it. X am going to ask the Minister of Justice to adopt this amendment. I ask the same thing of the Minister of Finance, who is acting Minister of Railways. I ask the hon. gentleman to lay aside his pride, if pride should come into this case, and to be guided only by the interests of the country. This is not an unreasonable thing. It merely proposes that the plans of the most favourable route and the most practicable grades and curvatures should be in possession of the House-and the hon. member for North Norfolk will certainly support this-together with the estimated cost based thereon.

1 insist, with all due deference to the opinions that have been offered from both sides of the House, that this is a timely amendment, that parliament should expect nothing less than that it should be consulted and all information placed in its possession before it commits itself to such an [DOT]outlay of money. It would not entail any delay in the construction of the railway. It will take some time to complete the surveys, and while these surveys are being prosecuted, we should at least retain the power to say, a year hence or two years hence, as the case may be, whether this scheme should be proceeded with, in view of the information that will then have been placed before parliament. I. therefore, beg to move, as an amendment to this clause", the proviso which I have just read.

I am quite certain that my hon. friend moves this amendment with all seriousness. But a moment's reflection will convince him how absolutely impossible it will be for the government to accept it. AVhat would be the effect of the adoption of this amendment ? It would delay the construction of the eastern end of this railway, from Winnipeg to Quebec and Moucton, while the work in connection with the western end, from Winnipeg to the coast, would be proceeded with, and the result would necessarily be to cause that diversion of traffic to American channels for the prevention of which my hon. friends laboured so strenuously all of yesterday. Their whole argument yesterday was that it was very desirable to prevent the diversion to American ports of Canadian trade, and now they deliberately pro pose to stop the work of construction on the eastern section, which would form an. outlet for the products of the -west, while the work of construction on the western end.

would proceed. I do not think my hon. friend seriously thinks that we could in, that way secure the end for which my hon friends laboured so strenuously yesterday My hon. friend (Mr. Clancy) made a reference to the report of Dr. Ami, and rather ridiculed that report. He attempts to deal with -this as if it were a complete statement of the information possessed by the government in respect to that part of the country extending from Winnipeg to Quebec. My hon. friend (Mr. Clancy) is a close student of parliamentary matters and of parliamentary reports, and he must see that this particular document is nothing more or less than an index to the mountains of information to which reference has been made. I am sure my hon. friend has not failed to see that, as it is made quite clear in the following words

The following report contains a brief account of some of the resources of the country traversed by the national transcontinental railway between Quebec and Winnipeg.

At the foot of the page we have the fol lowing paragraph :-

The information contained herein is compiled from reports of surveys and explorations made by the Geological Survey of Canada from 1843 to 1903.

That is to say, it is compiled from reports that have been made during sixty years But it is also compiled from the reports of

The Crown Lands Departments of Ontario and Quebec, as well as from some other authentic sources.

Then, my hon. friend at the conclusion of the preface will find :

A list of the principal sources of information cited has been added and the works of reference consulted number in a.ll nearly 10,000 pages.

And then, at the end of the report, you will find four and a quarter pages of refer ences to the different reports that my hon. friend might consult. This was merely' intended as an index to the sources of information there referred1 to. I endeavoured to make myself to some extent familiar with these different sources of information. 1 do not pretend for a moment that I made myself fully familiar with that information, but, as a result of my numerous conferences with Dr. Ami, I suggested tlie compilation of this blue-book. I find that in both northern Ontario and northern Quebec,, in the section that will be reached by the Grand Trunk Pacific, there is a great deal of land fit for settlement. It is estimated that in northern Quebec there are 70 million acres of land capable of settlement which have not been touched. Let us assume that only one-seventh of this will be directly benefited by the building of tlie Grand Trunk Pacific ; that would mean at least 10 million acres, or nearly one-halif the extent of the present cultivated area of

the province. Besides this, there is known to exist along this whole road much valuable timber.

Now, with respect to the great clay belt, which lies partly In Ontario and partly in Quebec, we find that the surveys made in the part of the province of Ontario reveal! the fact that there are 16 million acres of good clay land and of good pine and spruce forests. My hon. friend (Mr. Clancy) must not overlook the fact that the Ontario reports have been sworn to. I dio not know the gentlemen who were employed by the Ontario government for the purpose of making these exploratory surveys, but I am quite satisfied that no man in Ontario connected with the important profession of surveying would undertake to make a report under oath that would not be true. It seems to me that these Ontario official reports do no more than bear out the testimony of Dr. Robert Bell, of the Geological -Survey. I find in his report for 1875 the following words

In a general way there is ,perhaps a greater proportion of good soil in the plateau region northward than southward of the height of land.

These reports of the Ontario government officials merely corroborate tihs report made by Dr. Bell as far back as 1875. Surely, we cannot disregard all that mass of testimony. Surely we cannot say that Dr. Bell in 1875 was preparing reports in respect of this country that could be used at the present time in connection With this enterprise. Surely, we are entitled to place some credence on the report of Dr. Bell, a reliable authority, who has done good service for this country. If I do not deal with this matter at greater length, my hon. friend will realize that it is not out of discourtesy, but because I do not think it is, possible for me to add anything to what has been said on that subject by the Minister of the Interior (Hon. Mr. Sifton), and to the valuable information which my hon. friend can find by consulting the records to which Dr. Ami refers. But I have in my hand a memo, prepared for me by Mr. Doucet, the engineer of the Trans-Canada Railway Company. Mr. Doucet says :

It lias been asserted that the country through which the -propos-eid transcontinental railway is intended to be run is unknown or where known is a land of rock and muskeg. Prom actual surveys and explorations made it can he stated definitely that such statements are false. More favourable lines than one can he had from Quebec to Winnipeg. From a report and map supplied by a reliable party working for the Trans-Canada Railway, a perfectly feasible route is had from Quebec to Da Tuque and following the St. Maurice river to Its headwaters where the height of land between the St. Lawrence and James bay is crossed at an elevation of 1,350 feet above sea level. This is the highest point between Quebec and Lake Nepigon. The fact of easy gradients being an essential condition of cheap carriage of grain has not been lost sight of in the selection of this route, for Hon. Mr. FITZPATRICK.

on a line explored from Quebec to Winnipeg from actual heights taken with barometers it is ascertained that no grades -opposed to east bound traffic will exceed thirty-two fe-et -to the mile, and -that the maximum grade with -traffic will not be over fifty-two feet to the mile.

This would mean that modern -engines such as are used on all up-to-date railways could Haul loads of 2,000 tons, and it is this favourable condition of levels on our proposed transcontinental railway which will -enable the allrail route to compete on most favourable terms with the rail and water route. From Quebec to the height of land via such a line as described. soil is of good quality until a short distance of the summit, or about -the upper waters of -the St. Maurice river, where the land becomes lighter, of sandy nature, and broken up with small -marshe-s and lakes, but this is a condition attending the -crossing of the height of land between -the St. Lawrence and James bay at any point between Quebec and Winnipeg, and it -is a well known fact that the further south the summit between the great lakes and th-e James bay is crossed the -longer st-reiteh of poor country is encountered, as proved on the Canadian Pacific Railway which runs through a barren, rocky land between North Bay and Rat Portage with slight exceptions, whereas, on a northern route from explorations actually made, nowhere is barren land encountered of more than 130 -miles in length, and this happens in the northern part of the province of Quebec at the headwaters of the St. Maurice river.

Now, we have all these reports to which Dr. Ami refers extending from 1843 down to 1903. We have these reports of the Ontario explorers sent out by the Ontario government. We have, in addition to that, Mr. Doucet's report made from actual surveys by people who went over this territory for the express purpose of locating the Trans-Canada line. The result shows that the country is a good country, that the country contains more arable land north of the height of land than south of it, and that in addition to that, from the railway construction standpoint, on the authority of Mr. Doucet we have it that a most favourable location can be found. That is the information upon which we rely in part. In addition to that there is a mass of available information that the student may find if he wants to pursue his inquiries further.

Mr. CLANCY.

Mr. Doucet does not profess to have ever made an actual survey or to have gone over the tract of country to be traversed by the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway. It is quite true that Mr. Doucet may have had some information but as far as is disclosed in the reports he had very limited information as to the route of the Trans-Canada Railway. These are the opinions of Mr. Doucet who is no doubt a. very respectable gentleman, but they are unsupported entirely ' by any surveys. I wish to point that out. There is no pretense that Mr. Doucet has made this report from any information obtained by surveys.

I extract from the memorandum prepared by Mr. Doucet the following words :

From actual surveys and explorations made it can be stated definitely that such statements are false.

That is to say that the country is unknown or is known to he a land of rock and muskegs.

More favourable lines than one can be had from Quebec to Winnipeg.

From actual surveys and explorations.

Mr. CLANCY.

Actual explorations not made by Mr. Doucet, but actual explorations such as we have handed down to this House. 1 desire, Mr. Chairman, to call your attention to the fact that this mountain of information laid on the Table of the House is merely an index to the mountain of information and that the House has not the information, but the index. The hon. gentleman the Minister of Justice made it perfectly clear this morning that such was the fact and there was no pretense that this report of Dr. Ami contained the information. The statement now made is that Dr. Ami's report is a mere index of such information as may be found in the tons of literature upon the subject which are to be found somewhere in the departments at Ottawa. Is that a fair way to treat the House ? Dr. Ami has given his opinions in some cases, but he has given his opinions not from experience, but entirely from his reading of the reports. These may be accurate or inaccurate conclusions. They are not information. In regard to the statement made concerning section 5 in Dr. Ami's report and which is at complete variance with the statement made in the Ontario government report this is not a mere index but it is a statement of supposed fact. There is a very positive and specific statement made in both cases. t>r. Ami says, in giving a summary of the conditions, that there is a very considerable quantity of white pine north of the height of land and the other report states that there is none.

I desire to call the attention of the hon. Minister of Justice to the fact that he has made the statement that the reports of the explorers of the Ontario government were all sworn to. If there is anything in that, and I have no objection to laying great stress upon that, I believe they swore to what they saw, but I believe they saw very little and swore to it. I have no doubt as to the truth of the statements that these gentlemen made.

That is a very polite way of putting it.