Oh, oh.

Mr. BOYD.

I say that plainly ; I say it thoughtfully. To build such a road as is proposed by the hon. member for North Norfolk at a reasonable cost, or at anything like the figure estimated here of $28,000 a mile, is impossible. In this speech of the hon. member for North Norfolk that I have quoted, that hon. gentleman says that the engineers of the Grand Trunk Railway now working between Winnipeg and Bake Nepi-gon have found grades of that kind and have so reported. If there are reports of that kind they should be laid before the House. Speaking as a man of some practical experience, I should like to see these reports and also the estimates of what it would cost to build such a road. I would like to see if such a road can be built for such a reasonable amount as stated by the custodian of the finances of this country.

I think that that hon. gentleman speaks with more recklessness than any man I have ever heard in this chamber occupying the same position.

Even Foster.

Mr. BOYD.

We never got anything of that kind out of Foster. If we had, we might have been there yet.

That is the explanation why these hon. gentlemen are' where they are. They are pursuing the Foster policy now.

Mr. BOYD.

We are pursuing a policy in the interest of the country. Until we get the reports of which the hon. member for North Norfolk speaks, we should delay reaching a conclusion. Of course, it is easy to get such grades in some places. But hon. gentlemeu must not forget that in building this road you must cross two heights of land, one as you pass from the Red river valley to the James bay slope, and the other when crossing from the James bay slope to the country in which the waters flow towards the St. Lawrence. In view of these plain facts, and in view of that declaration of the hon. member for North Norfolk, who is put up as the mouthpiece of the government, that the money will be thrown away if these easy grades of which he speaks are not obtained, it is most important that we should have the information of which that hon. gentleman speaks. The motion of the hon. member for Bothwell (Mr. Clancy) is, therefore, quite in order. We should delay until we have that re-iport and an estimate of what it will cost to make a road of the grades spoken of. I spent two years on the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway in the very territory that is spoken of, and, though that road has not such grades as the hon. gentle-

Mr. BOYD.

man speaks of, it costs $85,000 per mile. And when the leader of the opposition said the goveruinent could not tell within $40,000,000 what* this road would cost, he might have added another $20,000,000 to it. If the government build such a road as the hon. member for North Norfolk speaks of, they cannot tell within $60,000,000 of what it will cost. .

What part of the Canadian Pacific Railway does the hon. member (Mr. Boyd) refer to ?

Mr. BOYD.

Between Rat Portage and Cross Lake. You will find some parts of that road that cost $100,000 per mile.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART-It cost nearly that to grade some portions of it.

That is the road we are to buy ?

Mi\ BOYD. No. I desire to say, Mr. Chairman, that I am making this speech and not the Minister of Justice. In that connection, I may say that it is not very often that members from Manitoba and the Northwest take part in this debate. But, as I said on a previous occasion if it could be shown to me that this road would afford the best solution of the problem of transportation that faces the people of the Northwest, I would be found supporting it. But it does not. And when hon. gentlemen tell me that such a road, built at such a cost, is to carry the products of the west cheaply to the sea-board, I can only say that the idea is a ridiculous one. I would like to see some of the ministers stand before the farmers of the North-west and make such speeches as they have made in this chamber, and see the reception they would get. The grain of that country will go out by Lake Superior and by Hudson bay. If the government were spending this money in development of the Hudson bay route, in the building of a road to Hudson bay, there would be more reason in their proposition. Even if they had given the territories of the North-west the provincial autonomy they are seeking and begging, we should have had a road to Hudson bay before now. There, mark you, is where the grain is going ; it is not going over this railway proposed by the government; it never will be' carried that way. I think in view of what has been so politely called to the attention of the Minister of Justice and of the House by the hon. member for Bothwell (Mr. Clancy) it would be advisable to allow this matter to rest for a day or two until the members of the House have had an opportunity of considering it.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

Mr. Chairman. This is the first time that we have had a quasi authoritative statement of the probable route of this railway. We have also had a statement from the Minister of Jus-

tice in reference to the facility with which a railway can he constructed along this route. The hon. minister stated that he did not depend entirely upon Dr. Ami's report in reference to the case of the construction of a railway through this section and he quoted from a report of a Mr. Doucet. 1 notice that the route, as laid down on this plan, goes from Selkirk north of Lake Ne-pigon and north of Lake Temiscamingue and south of Lake Abitibi.

Mr. TAYLOR.

The Minister of Justice said it would go north of Lake Abitibi.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

Upon the map the route runs south of Lake Abitibi. It has been stated in the House that we have mountains of information as to the facility with which a railway can be carried along this line from Winnipeg to Quebec. The government could have had the most accurate information in reference to this country. A line of railway was surveyed and located from Selkirk to the north of Lake Nepigon, from the point where their line diverts to the north of Lake Temiscamingue and to the south of Lake Abitibi. The old surveyors left the north part of Lake Nepigon and went down towards Mattawa, going south of Lake Temiscamingue but the government could have had the most accurate, information with reference to the road from Selkirk to Lake Nepigon. The man who surveyed that portion of the road westerly from Lake Nepigon towards Selkirk, Mr. Keating, is at present living in Toronto, and the parties engaged in the survey east of Lake Nepigon, in the direction of Mattatwa where it was to connect with the Brock-ville and Ottawa Railway according to the original intention, are living at the present time. Mr. Camsby, who conducted the survey of the portion west of Lake Nepigon and others who were engaged with him are living. Mr. Doucet has furnished the Minister of Justice with information as to the practicability of this route and the facility of construction but you must remember that on the proposed route as semi-authoritatively given to the House in this plan, yon dip in and out of the height of land eleven times between Winnipeg and Quebec. As I have said the government could have obtained the most accurate information in reference to the line from Selkirk to the north of Lake Nepigon, and I have several times given to the House information which I have received in reference to the nature of that particular portion of the country. You must all remember the enormous amount of money that it cost this country to merely grade the Canadian Pacific Railway road to the north of the Lake of the Woods. The grading of much of that portion of the road cost the government of this country nearly $60,000 per mile. The information furnished to the government when Sir Sandford Fleming was head of the engineering staff of the Railway De-379

partment was that there was no such facile route from Selkirk to the head of Lake Nepigon as we found along the north shore of the Lake of the Woods. That information, I presume, can be obtained from Mr. Keating who will probably have his notes in reference to the survey ; the original information furnished to the government at that time and all these plans were destroyed when the west block was burned. I venture to say, however, that no such gradients as have been suggested can be found unless by making an expense so enormous that it could not be justified at all. To make a commercial road from Selkirk to the head of Lake Nepigon you have first of all to go along a line of road near the English river, as difficult as the line along the shores of the Lake of the Woods. The government have in their possession at the present time full information as to what it cost the country to simply grade that line, without laying the rails. They know that from Selkirk to Lake Nepigon no better gradients can be found than are found along the Lake of the Woods, without an expenditure that could not be justified you could not get a line with gradients not over 26 feet to the mile from Winnipeg to the head of Lake Superior. The information I have is that the country from a point 26 miles north of Lake Nepigon westerly along the shores or near the shores of English river to Selkirk, where the Canadian Pacific Railway was to terminate when it was intended to cross Lake Nepigon is such a country as the north shore of the Lake of the Woods in which there is no possibility of getting a good gradient. It is a country of granite ridges intersected here and there with muskegs. To secure good grades in that country would cost an enormous sum of money and dipping down from the height of land into the James bay plateau and rising out of it again at Lake Nepigon would prevent the getting of grades that would make it a commercial road. From Lake Nepigon they can get most accurate surveys although not to the north of Lake Temiscamingue, but they have in the department accurate surveys down to Mattawa.

The original intention in building the Canadian Pacific Railway was to go north of Lake Nepigon and from Lake Nepigon over to Selkirk along the shores of Lonely lake and the Lake of the Woods. If you go from the northern part of Lake Nepigon, westerly towards Winnipeg, there is a common line for over 260 miles from Wabigoon to Winnipeg, and if there is a new line built, the existing line will have to be paralleled by the new line, which will have to be located within a few miles of it in order to get to the shores of Lake Nepigon. When the government were getting the report of the Geological Survey in reference to this particular part of the country, why did they not go to the head of the survey- to Dr. Bell 1 He is acquainted with that

country. He lias spent a good deal of Ills life along tlie shores of the Hudson's bay and the plateau to the south of that body of water. He knows the extent of that plateau ; he knows all about that portion of the country and he could have given a most authoritative statement, although he Is not a railway man, as to the character of country that is to be found between the different rivers that run north to James bay. But instead of that we have a report from a Dr. Ami. I suppose he is a gentleman who is one of the head men of the Geo* logical Survey. I never heard of him before. I have no doubt he has given an accurate account of such statements as are in their possession, but you must take into account the method by which a geological survey is made. The exploring party get into a bark canoe at the beginning of the summer, and follow down the rivers for 150 or 200 miles. That is the only way they can do and it is the best way to get an accurate geological description of the country. But, this proposed railway does not follow the lines of rivers : it trends across the rivers, at right angles to them. Long ago I was making inquiries regarding this country, and I obtained some information from the Geological Survey. We were not then considering the construction of a railway in that section of the country, but I was making inquiries as to the character of the country between the stiearns going into Hudson's bay. I found out that for a short distance back from the streams there was a belt of timber sometimes valuable and sometimes not, but that, as a rule, between the rivers and between the branches of the rivers, there were immense morasses stretching from one river to another, not at all cultivable land, and not the kind of land which has been described by non. gentlemen opposite who are advocating this scheme. As I stated before in some observations which I addressed to this House, in order to get to the good lands you have to get into the plateau south of James bay. Immediately south of James bay the plateau commences with a width of 50 miles, and widens out when it gets north of the Lake of the Woods to a width of nearly 150 miles. This railway does not propose to go along that plateau at all. It is far south of it. It goes several miles south of Lake Abitibi, crosses over at the head of Lake '.'emiscamingue, takes an air line to the head of Lake Nepigon, and from there to Winnipeg it follows the height of land nearly all the way, although it dips down from the height of land into the plateau between Winnipeg and Quebec eleven times. As to the possibility of the construction of a line such as the hon. member for North Norfolk ."Mr. Charlton) says it is necessary in these times to have in order to make a commercial railway undertaking a successful one, that is one over which a modern locomotive can carry 50 or 60 car loads of

wheat, it is utterly impossible to get it in that section of the country. If it were possible even in that section of the country my contention is that a road there would be fit only for the purpose of introducing settlement into that country. It could never be made use of as a commercial undertaking, because there is no denying the statement contained in the letter which was read by my hon. friend for North Lanark (Mr. Rosamond), from Mr. Meighen, President of the Lake of the Woods Milling Company, to the effect that the only possible way that we can compete with Buffalo in carrying grain to the Atlantic ports is to adopt the scheme proposed by him. The scheme proposed by him is a most practical one, and covers tlie whole transportation question. He proposes that a line from Winnipeg to Lake Superior should be made as facile as possible. The Canadian Pacific Railway are doing that work now. They are reducing all the grades to four-tenths of one per cent. In addition to that, he suggests that we should have cheap transportation on the lakes to the port of Montreal. I need not dwell upon it, because it is more fully stated in the letter of Mr. Meighen than I can possibly state it.

At one o'clock, Committee took recess.

Committee resumed at Three o'clock.

Mr. BLAIN.

The amendment proposed by the hon. member for Bothwell (Mr. Clancy) should receive the careful consideration of the government. It is of vast importance to the people of Canada, that before this 1,800 miles of railway from Winnipeg to Moncton shall be constructed, the government should place before us proper surveys and a proper estimate of the cost. Some few weeks ago, the hon. leader of the opposition challenged any member of the government to say, within $10,000,000, what the cost of this railway would be, and from that day to this not one of the ministers or not one of their supporters has attempted to accept that challenge. The hon. member from North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton) has been taking a very particular interest in this discussion. He has been put forward as the chief spokesman of the government, outside the ministers themselves, and in view of his prominence in this debate, it may not be inappropriate to quote these remarks of his :

It is beyond all things necessary that we should make no false step, that we should proceed upon no false hypothesis or basis ; and for that reason it is a wise thing to appoint a commission, composed of men who are capable of examining this question and arriving at correct conclusions. We cannot do it here in an expert and scientific manner, we must rely upon the service of men of the character of those who are to be appointed upon this commission. Let us wait until we have the decision of these men as to the proper course to pursue.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

[DOT]

That was the opinion of the hon. member {Mr. Charlton) on the 26th of May last. He stated then that there was no expert information within the limits of this parliament, and, in the light of his recent actions, that statement is a reflection on himself, because be has been pushed forward by the government as a great expert in railway matters, not only in this House, but in the country. I have been examining this book which the government has presented to us, and which deals with the so-called resources of the country through which this railway will run. The part of the province of Ontario through whicli it is proposed to build this railway is divided into ten districts. The ministers and their supporters have stated that a chief reason for the construction of this road is, that in that territory there are large quantities of timber, which would be made valuable in a commercial sense. Let us see what this book says about the timber. Treating of the timber in district No. 1, it says :

There is little white pine timber north of the height of land, the trees being scattered and inferior in quality. Some small areas of red pine and some jack pine were met with, nearly all of these varieties being found south of Lake Ahitibi.

As to district No. -2, it says :

The prevailing timber is spruce and poplar, there being no pine or hardwood. The spruce, especially along the river banks, attains a size which renders it valuable for square timber, &c.

This timber may be valuable for pulp wood, but it is not the timber which is generally considered of the most valuable kind commercially. Indeed, there is now within reach of our railways and water ways in the provinces of Quebec and Ontario very large quantities of this kind of timber which is yet unused, and it has been often stated in this House that there is sufficient of that kind of timber along the line of our railways and waterways, not only to supply our own wants, but to satisfy tlie demands of the export trade for many years to come. As to district No. 4, it says :

The district is heavily timbered with spruce and tamarack, interspersed with other varieties. Owing to the density of growth, the spruce and tamarack are for the most part, too small for any other commercial use than pulp wood ; their diameter not being proportionate to the height they usually attain.

As to district No. 5 it says :

About one-third of the total area is timber, making 640,000 acres, half of which will, it is estimated, yield good pulp wood or timber. The trees growing along the river banks have usually attained a fair size. Inland the timber is generally small and scrubby.

Of district No. 6 it says :

There are great quantities of excellent pulp wood throughout the district, the principal variety being spruce and jack pine.

379* ,

Of district No. 7 it says :

There is little timber of commercial value, and such tracts as are intrinsically valuable are practically unavailable on account of location.

As to district No. 9, it says :

There is no pine except in isolated clumps. Spruce timber is thickly scattered throughout the territory, hut much of it is too small to be marketable, though on the higher land it reaches a good size.

As to district No. 10, it says :

The timber on the English river and its tributaries is exceedingly valuable.

Now, this is the most favourable statement as to the timber to be found in this book. It is quite clear, that if the government had ' mountains of information ' in respect to the timber limits of northern Ontario and Quebec, even if they had to get it from the library, they would have given it, so as to make a more favourable showing. In no case can we find, from the contents of this book, that the timber to be found in this region is what might be called of a valuable description. I am a believer in the future of Canada and in the splendid resources to be found in Quebec and Ontario, but when the people of this country are asked to expend millions and millions of money in building a railway, it is not unreasonable that we should ask for sufficient information to enable us to vote intelligently as to the expenditure of this money. The amendment should be carried.

Mr. KEMP.

The question involved in the amendment of the hon. member (Mr. Clancy) is a most important one. It goes without saying, that any business or any business corporation would lay down as a first proposition, that before they proceeded with the expenditure of $3.25,000,000 to build a railway, they should have some information as to the surveys of the territory, as well as an estimate of the cost. The leader of the opposition well remarked, that the mountains of information, promised by the government, were overshadowed in size by the match box on the Table of the House, and that amongst these mountains of information we could not find any report from competent engineers as to the possibility of building a railway in that territory equal to the standard spoken of by the bon. member for North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton), who is the champion of the government's scheme. We have reports from geologists, it is true, but when these geologists travelled the district, it was not in their minds that a railway ever would be built there and in any case, when a railway is to be built, it is not geologists we send out to obtain data, but competent and reliable engineers. It would seem as if tlie government were rushing into this thing headlong. The organs of public opinion in this country have criticised the course of the Prime Minister, and I call his atten-

tion to what was said by one very important newspaper in Toronto, a newspaper which at first sight favoured his railway policy. This .newspaper tried as much as it could to endorse the schemes of the right lion, gentleman, because, as has been stated by one of my colleagues from Toronto, the managing director and editor is also the biographer of the right hon. gentleman, and sets him upon a very high pedestal. So that naturally he feels it incumbent upon him to defend the object of his admiration. The Toronto ' News,' after endorsing his project, after doing all it could to encourage the government in its course, on August 25tli last made a very significant statement, which I would like to read for the benefit of the right hon. gentleman :

In discussing the scheme, the ' News ' steadily has kept prominent the fact that for the project to have a chance of success the road must attain something closely akin to perfection. That means that the gradients must be as easy as those on the New York Central and the Wabash Railways. A convenient standard of excellence is to regard four-tenths of 1 per cen{-21 feet to the mile^as [DOT] our maximum grade. Throughout the discussion the * News ' has assumed that grades of this nature, together with easy 'curves, must be obtained. Unless such conditions are realized, the line will be a disappointment.

The importance of this condition is immense. Hopes are not facts. We say that the line ' must ' be so constructed. Nature may reply that It cannot be so constructed. What then ? If, when the line is located, heavy grades are announced, from that moment the prospects of the project will be of the gloomiest. If the engineers, after patient searching, after exhausting their ingenuity, are forced to report that steep grades cannot be avoided, the scheme will not be worth trying. The best tiling to do then will be to turn to the improvement of the lake and rail route we already possess.

To what extent does the government realize this fact ? We wish we could answer this question. Individual ministers are seized of its importance. Some of Sir Wilfrid Gaurier's supporters outside of the cabinet are aware of the situation. Mr. Charlton, for instance, gave a particularly clear exposition of the value of low grades. But for the authoritative declaration of the government's policy we must search the Bill now before the House, and the contract which, once ratified, will bind the country. Neither in the Bill nor in the contract do we find any satisfactory recognition of the absolute necessity of low grades. If the Bill becomes law. if the contract is signed, the country will be bound to construct the Winnipeg to Moncton section. The engineers may report that 1 per cent grades are unavoidable. The country will know then that it is committed to an unprofitable undertaking.

The country will know that on a road with 1 iper cent grades trains of perhaps twenty cars must he run instead of trains of sixty or seventy cars. The country will know that a railway which can run trains of only twenty cars .cannot compete with American railways which run trains of thrice that length.

The country, in short, will know that its plan of rivalling the American all-rail route with a Canadian all-rail route has failed-failed before an embankment has been built, before

Mr. BLAIN.

a tie has been laid. Yet the country will be hound to build that railway. It might possibly build it as cheaply as possible, and hope that it would he of some use as a colonization line. But the government is planning a national outlet, not a colonization railway.

In the Bill is incorporated a section authorizing the Governor In Council at any time to suspend the progress of ithe work upon t.he eastern division until the next session of parliament. The contract with the Grand Trunk Pacific contains no such provision. Under the Bill, the government could, in the event of receiving discouraging reports from the engineers, suspend operations and report to parliament. The country would then be in the position of knowing that the necessary conditions of success were absent, and of being bound by the contract. Negotiations with the Grand Trunk Pacific might follow. In such negotiations the company would have the upper hand. Conceivably, a variation of plan might be adopted, which would result in a railway system strikingly like the original Grand Trunk Pacific proposal. The Grand Trunk engineers have reported that suitable grades can be got from Winnipeg eastward to Abitibi. The eastern division might be made to terminate a.t Abitibi, and connected there with the Temiskamingue and Northern, thus placing the Grand Trunk Pacific in touch with the old Grand Trunk system. All this, however, is conjecture. What is not conjecture is the awkwardness of the position which the government and the country *would occupy.

It is not too lata to guard against such a difficulty. The contract has not been ratified. Bet a clause be inserted in the contract, stipulating that the eastern division must be built to a certain standard, and that, if the engineers ascertain that, by reason of natural obstacles, such a standard cannot be attained, the obligation to construct the eastern division shall lapse.

The resolution which is before the House embodies practically the same ideas as those expressed in this article, and it is a sensible article. If the government find that a modem railway for carrying grain, with four-tenths per cent grades, cannot be obtained, why should this country put itself in a position of being under obligations to tbe Grand Trunk Pacific Railway to continue this scheme, or be subject to damages ? It seems to me that no punishment or criticism could be too severe for a government that goes into a project of this kind in this manner. The hon. member for North Norfolk, in reply to the hon. Minister of Railways, spoke as follows :-

As I said last night, this road from Winnipeg to Quebec, if it is to serve the purpose which it is intended to serve, must be a first class road. It must have not more than half per cent grades, and should have four-tenths per cent grades coming east, or twenty-one feet to the mile. It should he laid with 90-poumd rails, should have bridges that would .carry the heaviest rolling stock in use, with a margin to allow for an increase in the weight of rolling stock : it should have engines of 100 tons weight without load, and cars of 50 tons without weight of cargo. The road must be built with a carrying capacity 50 per cent greater than is now required.

The very best evidence can be brought to show that it is a mistake for the government to commit the country to this work, and impose upon the country an obligation to tlie Grand Trunk Pacific Company to complete it without knowing whether the conditions are favourable or unfavourable. Surely the government cannot commence to build this road before another session of parliament. I may mention that the Cana-Pacific Railway Company have been engaged almost continuously for the last three years surveying a line between Toronto and Sudbury. They have located their line once or twice, and have then gone in other directions to see if they could not get better grades or a more economical route. But here the government are proposing to build a line 1,800 or 1,900 miles in length, with four-tenths per cent grades, without having any preliminary surveys at all. They say the road can be built. Of course, engineers can do almost anything; but what will it cost? They will have either to go over the mountains or tunnel them. If they have to tunnel them, the cost will be enormous, and if they go over them, the grades will be too great. The very reasons the government put forward for building this road have been exploded. The bonding question is now never referred to ; and the argument in regard to carrying grain more cheaply over this road than by the rail and water route is also exploded to a great extent. What is the reason of this haste? In a few months we can get some information in regard to the explorations of properly qualified surveyors and engineers who understand locating railways. It seems to me that the Grand Trunk Company will have the upper hand of us if we commit the country to this obligation at the present time. It also seems apparent to me that if the right bon. the Prime Minister could now retrace his steps, he would not take this course.

. It seems to me that he did not anticipate that his Minister of Railways, the man best qualified in the cabinet to speak on this question, would have resigned if this project had been forced on the way it was. It is therefore not too late even now for the government to say : We will try and get as much information' as we can in the next six months and lay it before parliament, and demonstrate that we can get a road which will be able to carry the products of the North-west to the sea-board, and we will have a four-tenths or fifty per cent grade. The resolution introduced by my hon. friend from Bothwell (Mr. Clancy) is not an unreasonable one, and if it cannot be supported by all hon. gentlemen opposite. it should at any rate get the support of the hon. member for North Norfolk (Mr. [DOT]Charlton). I do not see how it is possible for him to vote against it.

Mr. BROCK.

Before you put this motion, Mr. Chairman, I think a little more discussion of it will not be out of place. I shall endeavour to confine myself entirely to the resolution. The resolution is eminently business-like. We are about to plunge into an enormous expenditure through an unknown land, and therefore should obtain all the information possible before we allow this measure to pass. We were told by the Prime Minister that the government had mountains of information, and I am convinced that the right hon. gentleman would not have made that statement unless he really believed that he had such a mass of information as would justify his assertion. But we find that all this information is reduced into the compass of a small blue-book, in which we find a most remarkable compilation leading us through the centuries, but giving us very little information. According to the Minister of Justice, it is merely an index to that great volume of information to which we have been referred, but it certainly is a very meagre accomplishment of what we were promised. It is not even an index. This country, Mr. Chairman, understands what all that means. The Prime Minister was led into a mistake, and his followers, with that loyalty which has always characterized them, are endeavouring to let him down as easily as possible-much more easily than the practical business men of the country will let him down. If an ordinary farmer comes to town to buy a log chain, how does he judge its strength ? By the strength of three or four links ? No ; by the strength of the weakest link, and he will not complete his purchase unless the defect is rectified. The same test should be applied to the case in hand. We are told by the transportation expert of the government that there will be a weak link in this railway, if the grades should be more than four-tenths to the mile. My contention is that, In judging this matter, we should judge it by its weakest link, and not by a few extracts from the reports of geological explorations which were not made with the view of railway building at all. A great portion of the information, if you can call it such, that we get from this hook does not concern the territory through which this railway will run, and therefore the government will be justified in delaying their course. All we ask is delay sufficient to get the information which will justify the building of this road. We will have to wait for that information in any case, because the government are not going on to build their line without any knowledge. They must have surveys made, and it will only he a few months when tills House will be called together again. Why not wait until that information is before the House ? We were told that we should have this road built at once,-as our bonding privileges were in danger of being abrogated. In the course of his remarks the other day, the Minister of Customs put a supposi-

1210S

titious case. He made the remarkable statement that the people in the North-west would be disloyal if they shipped their goods any other way than through Canadian ports, regardless of the expense. But, Sir, they will select the cheapest route, the one which will leave them the most money. Such an argument as my hon. friend the Minister of Customs made would be laughed at in the North-west. This easteru extension of the railway was started very .shrewdly. The company were perfectly satisfied to get a charter from North Bay into the wheat fields of Manitoba and the North-west, but they were jollied on to take a charter to Quebec and then to Moncton. It was never suggested by the company that they wanted to build that eastern division. No, they knew, as practical railway men, that it could not be done profitably, and they threw it at the government. The government snapped at the bait and hold it in their jaws now, and that is why this matter is being rushed through without a particle of the information which the people should have. One of the shrewdest men of the House, the hon. member for Brantford (Mr. H-eydj, acknowledged that he had not the Information he required and wanted to get it. That is what we all want. This is not a question of building a branch line a few miles, but of building a great transcontinental railway all through Canadian territory to Canadian ports. That sounds very big, and that is what took. I can understand the Prime Minister, with his lack of knowledge of railway matters, being taken in by such a grand flourish. But although a portion of this country may be fooled all the time, and although the whole of it may be fooled now and again, the whole of it cannot be fooled all the time.

And therefore, I urge, not only upon this House, but upon the country, that we should have a little more out of that mountain of information that the right hon. Prime Minister promised) us. It is said that we are going to do a great injury to the North-west if we do not build this road at once, that if it is not built at once the people of the North-west will ship their grain through the United States. Are they going to ship their grain through the United States at higher rates than they pay for shipping it through Canada ? Not at all. The only way by which the United States can take that traffic is by giving lower figures on it than the Canadian routes can give. How about tlie grain now ? Is it hanking up in the North-west ? No, the grain is coining out every day, and more grain is coming out through Canadian routes and tlie natural Canadian route at tlie present time than ever before in the history of the country. And so good is that route, so desirable is that route, that we do not find the American people preaching to the farmers on that side that they could not send a pound of Mr. BROCK.

grain over Canadian territory. As a matter of fact, American grain is coining over Canadian territory and is being shipped by way of Montreal and Quebec. I wonder that that is not an eye opener to hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House. Many of them want to he fair. It is not from personal interest that they are pushing this measure through parliament. I can only think that it is on account of the wonderful eloquence that hag captivated them in its flowing periods dealing with the bonding privilege. And yet I should) have thought, had the orator been any other than the right lion. Prime Minister of this Dominion, that he was really not in earnest but was making a statement merely for effect. The effect, I am quite sure, has not been a good one.

Another point that impresses upon me the desirability of going slow in this matter is the fact that we have not a single great railway expert in this country at tire back of this scheme. We have not the opinion of a single one of them favourable to tlie liroject, but quite the contrary. Engineer after engineer, and railway manager after railway manager, has condemned it. Why, they hardly seem to consider it, so clear are they in their opinion that it is impossible to he done. Why should we run our heads against a stone wall of this kind, when by waiting only one year we can find out whether we can or can not build such a railway as the expert of the government, the levelheaded business man who rose in this House to answer the late Minister of Railways, and who, deliberately, and after great preparation, made the statement, which I am bound to say he must have believed, that, unless we could get a railway with such grades as lie described, we should be throwing our money atway by building a railway at all. It seems to me that many hon. members are ready to throw the money away. The Finance Minister (Hon. Mr. Fielding), the man who above ail should endeavour to safeguard1 the finances of this country, says that we are going to build a road through that country anyway. That is not tlie spirit in which to approach a great business matter of that kind. We have great respect for that hon. gentleman but that respect is not increased by such statements as he made here this morning.

Another thing, I think, should make us pause is that we are not trying an experiment, the result of which we can wipe away to-morrow. If the contract is entered into and carried out, we have that road not only for fifty years, but we have it on our shoulders, like the old man of the mountain, for all time, hampering the progress of this country and making it more difficult for us to improve and get the benefit of, our best means of transportation. To find out wliat our best means of transportation are the government started out right, I believe, when they issued from the council chamber a manifesto that they were going to appoint

a commission expressly for the purpose of considering all the means of transportation. Carrying out that policy they

appointed a commission composed of most respectable and reputable men, men in whom the country will have confidence. Before these men we should

bring the evidence to enable them to arrive at a decision. They can call upon the best railway experts, and when they have collected the facts that are available, any recommendations that they make will be received not only by the House but by the country. This is of such importance that I wonder that the Prime Minister does not at once rise in his place and say that he has reconsidered this matter, that the plan suggested from this side of arriving at the proper information is the best one, and allow us to go on with other business, wipe this off the slate andt start anew after we have this information. But it is most difficult to acknowledge that we are in error. We all have in our composition a large amount of pride which, sometimes, will not allow us to do what we know we ought to do. And I can understand that this has actuated many lion, gentlemen on the other side of the House. Having once committted themselves, not only individually but as a party, they would rather face the country and go down to defeat at the poll than acknowledge that they were wrong. I have a certain respect for that feeling. I like to see firmness in the maintenance of a resolution, so long as those who are responsible are to be the only losers. But, in the meantime, as we contend, the country will be the loser. These lion, gentlemen should put the country before themselves and their feelings. If they insist upon pushing this scheme through, they must take upon themselves the blame, as they expect to claim the glory, if there is any. They cannot blame parliament or this side of the House. Therefore, I would strongly urge that the amendment moved by the hon. member for Bothwell is a most reasonable and fair amendment, as it is one that we believe will meet the approval of the country.

Mr. JOHNSTON (Cardwell).

go when it left the elevator. The elevator man will choose the route which will save him the most money. I had hoped that the government would postpone the building of the eastern part of this road until they had secured proper information as to where and how it is to be built, and what it will cost. The hon. member for North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton) has told us that the road must have certain grades and certain curvatures or it would he absolutely useless. I do not know what he would call a short curvature on a railway, but I do know what is a short curvature in a man's judgment. It takes him but a few days to curve himself into another frame of mind and to talk in a teetotally different manner from the way in which he had talked a few days before. If he is allowing as short curves in the railway as he permits in himself, I think it will be a mighty twisty Grand Trunk Pacific Railway. I would earnestly ask the government to adopt the amendment offered by the member for Bothwell (Mr. Clancy). That would at least show to the opposition and to the country that they do not intend to bind the country to this enormous expenditure without knowing anything as to where the railway is to be built or what it will cost. There is not a farmer, or a municipality, or any other institution in Canada, except the Dominion government that would propose such a scheme without knowing what it would cost, where it would go, or whether it could be built or not. They talk about wasting the time of this House. It is the government who are wasting the time by bringing down a measure about which they know nothing. The hon. member for South Brant (Mr. Heyd) who, I think, wants to be fair, yesterday acknowledged that he did not know anything about it. I am in the samt boat with my hon. friend ; I do not know anything about where this railway is to go, and I am willing and anxious to know about it because I will be questioned about it when I go home, and I want to be able to answer intelligently. If I cannot answer intelligently I will have to say that the government could not do so. The government cannot say within 40 or 60 millions, what it will cost, and they do not know within 40 or 50 miles where it is to run. They have a starting point and a finishing point and that Is all that I know of it yet.

Mr. SPROULE.

This is perhaps the last opportunity that we will have of pressing on the attention of the government the wisdom of going slowly, and of proceeding along intelligent business lines before they commit the country to this great undertaking. Every intelligent man in Canada will ask himself the question : Were the members of the House justified in supporting the government in this measure.