Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

Well, I protest against this multiplying of offices and this making of deputy heads where there is no need for it. And, as to the position of registrar of the Supreme Court, I do not think that the qualification required for such an officer justifies the paying of such a salary as that which is paid in this case.

On section 4,

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

What does this officer get paid for revising the statutes ?

Twelve hundred dollars.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

So, he is in receipt of 54,000 now ? .

A little more than $4,000.

Bill reported, read the third time, and passed.

That is a section that it will be almost impossible to have adopted at the present time. I think it is far in advance of public opinion, and I see no reason why we should make the exercise of the franchise compulsory. It is a privilege which may be exercised by an individual according to what he considers right or wrong, and I do not see why we should compel a man to vote.

Mr. FOWLER.

The same argument would apply to any offence. A man may have so elastic a conscience that he would want to take money for his vote, but I suppose the hon. minister would not make the man's conscience the guide and final appeal in such a matter, nor would he relieve him from punishment because the man's con-451J

science cleared him of offence against that particular law. As to this section being in advance of public opinion, I do not know that the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Fitzpatrick) has brought forward any argument to show that. It seems to me that it is the most direct and most effective way of arriving at what the whole House professes to be anxious to arrive at-greater purity in elections.

Mr. LaRIVIERE. While it is considered very desirable that every elector should cast his vote at election time, I believe that the principle of compulsory voting is altogether undesirable. At the same time, I must call the attention of the Minister of Justice to the fact that we manage to protect the elector who, because of conscientious scruple, does not wish to cast his vote. In Manitoba, in the preparation of the voters' list, every voter has to apply to register his name on the list, and only those whose names are registered are entitled to vote. We have a large class of people in Manitoba and also a number in the North-west who, because of conscientious scruple, will not vote. These people do not register their names, and, therefore, are not called upon to vote. Notwithstanding we attain the object in Manitoba, by the preparation of our voters' lists, of protecting those who on account of religious scruples do not wish to vote or cannot vote. But if we adopt the principle of compulsory voting we would put those people in a very awkward position, because they cannot vote.

Mr. FOWLER.

This does not affect those people. If they do not want to vote they are simply struck off the list. There is no punishment inflicted upon them.

Mr. LaRIVIERE. But the same circumstances do not exist in the other provinces. Those who are entitled to vote, whether they wish to do so or not, are put on the list, and if they are put on the list against their wish they would be compelled to vote.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

The Minister of Justice says that the exercise of voting is a privilege. It is more than that. The man who votes is a trustee, he has to exercise a trust, not only for himself, but for a great many others in the community who have no votes. They ought, therefore, to exercise it one way or the other. It is not a privilege conferred upon a person that he may exercise as he pleases ; it is a duty that he owes to the rest of the community, it is a trust with which he is clothed. He not only exercises it for himself, but he exercises it for others in the community who have no vote. The franchise may be a limited one. There is a certain class of females in the community who have no votes ; he has to exercise that trust for them, and why should he not be forced to exercise it ? If, when he comes to the

poll, he finds there is no difference between the two parties or between the two candidates, if he has no choice between them, he may put in a blank ballot. But surely it is his duty when he is entrusted with the franchise, not only for himself, but for others, to exercise that franchise.

Mr. FRASER.

He is acting like a hypocrite if he puts in a blank ballot.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

No such a thing. There may be no difference between the two candidates. But there is a better plan than that. The Minister of Finance, in speaking upon this Bill, drew attention to the prevalence of corrupt practices in this country. We want to do away with those corrupt practices. One of the chief modes of exercising corrupt practices is the expenditure of money to get parties to vote, to use that trust with which the community have entrusted them-not the exercise of a privilege, as the Minister of Justice says, but the fulfilment of a duty. We want to bring them to the polls, and in order to do that, what Is the best plan ? I have thought over the subject for the last twenty years. I have been opposed to the principle which has been advocated in this House again and again In favour of compulsory voting, but I have come to the conclusion that there are only two methods of doing away with corruption, of doing away with the frauds that are practiced in elections, and which are too prevalent at the present day, and those two modes are compulsory voting and open voting.

Open voting is all right. .

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

I am in favour of open voting. I am in favour of compelling a man who has a trust to exercise it one way or the other in favour of one candidate or the other ; and if he has no choice between them, let him go to the polls and declare, by putting in a blank ballot, that neither of the candidates are satisfactory to him.

It is a purely academic question to discuss whether the franchise is a right or a privilege. Whether it be a right or a privilege it can be exercised in two ways, by abstention as well as by casting a vote. The system of government which we enjoy, and which we all recognize is the very best that can be devised by man for the government of man, is the party system. It is impossible to carry on the government of the country except by party organizations. What has been our universal experience ? We know it happens sometimes that a man is not satisfied with the conduct of the party which he has usually supported ; still he has no confidence in the other party. His conscience will not allow him to go with his own party, because he is not satisfied with certain acts they have committed ; he wants to mark

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

his disapproval, he has a right to mark his disapproval, of those acts, and the best and most effective method by which he can do so is to refuse to vote. There is not a gentleman in this House who has not seen examples of that kind. A party candidate cannot bring to the polls to support him some members of his own party because they think their party has been guilty of some action of which they disapprove, which was not in line with the general policy of that party. Under such circumstances may not one, or three, or four, or twenty, of the most respectable citizens in a community openly mark their dissent from their own party by abstaining from voting ? They have a right to say, we will not vote for you, neither can we vote for the other side, for we do not believe in them ; therefore, we do not propose to vote at all on this occasion. Now is, that not a legitimate manner of exercising the right of franchise? Is that not one of the highest, most moral and most effective methods of asserting his independence under the circumstances ? More than that, it has been found to be effective upon every occasion that it has been exercised. Under such circumstances you cannot say that you will compel a man to give his vote, compel him to commit a hypocritical action, in going to the polls and casting a blank ballot. I believe that under the circumstances a man has a right to say : I will not vote on this occasion, I say so openly and above-board, I will not vote, neither will I vote for the other side, because I do not believe in their policy ; therefore, I will stay at home. I appeal to the conscience of every man opposite, I appeal particularly to the conscience of my hon. friend from King's, N.B. (Mr. Fowler), who has taken a warm part in the discussion of this question, I appeal to him whether he thinks it is right to force a man to vote under these circumstances. True it is that if we allow this privilege of abstention we may not reach a certain class of electors who want to be bribed. Well, let me say that so far as my experience goes-I will not speak of cities of which I have not much experience-but so far as the rural part of the community is concerned the number of electors who are accessible to bribes is very small, is infinitesimal. You will always find a certain proportion of the electors who are ready to take bribes, but the great mass of the electors vote according to their conscience, according to their sense of duty, according to their usual party affiliations. Of course, there are exceptions, there are always a certain number who will wait to the last moment to vote. We have the five o'clock man, we have the four and a half o'clock man, who will hold back his vote to the last moment, waiting for the highest bidder. If you were to have compulsory voting, and this class of men had to go to the polls, do you think they would be any the less ready to take a bribe ? They would

take it a little earlier, that is all. They would not wait for the highest bidder, but they would take the first one that offered. For my part, I think the method we have at present is the best and the most maniy that we can devise.

Mr. FOWLER.

I agree with what the right lion, gentleman has said as to the small number of persons in rural constituencies who can be approached by the briber, but unfortunately there are enough of them in most of the constituencies to make the difference between victory and defeat. They hold the balance of power. There are honest men in both parties, and they are the great mass. The very great mass of the electorate, I believe, are honest voters, who cannot be approached in that way. But unfortunately there are a number in almost every constituency that cun be handled, and when they all go one way, or the majority of them go one way, that' way is apt to be the way that decides the election. That is the class we want to get at. Now the difficulty with the argument of the Premier is that he does not seem to perceive the principle which I think is the true principle, that the right to vote is a trust. As the hon. member for Lanark (Hon. Mr. Haggart) has pointed out, it is not only a trust for himself, but for others who are not voters, for minors and for females who have not the franchise. No trustee can exercise a trust by abstaining from fulfilling its terms ; that is entirely contrary to the doctrine of trusts. What right has any man to decide at a mere whim of his own whether he shall exercise his trust or not ? We have in this country the system of party government, and the voter has the right to select from either one of these parties, but I cannot agree with the doctrine laid down by the Prime Minister that an abstention from voting is an exercise of the trust vested in the elector.

Mr. EMMERSON.

Elections are frequently held on Saturday. There is a large body of Christians in the maritime provinces, and particularly in the county of Albert, which I represented for a number of years in the local house, who, when elections are held on Saturday, absolutely refuse to vote, owing to religious scruples. These are the Adventists, who are to be found in large numbers in Albert and in Carleton and a great many other counties throughout New Brunswick. This is a country of religious liberty, and however much we may disagree with their views they are entitled to recognition, they are entitled to liberty of conscience, and it seems to me that it would be manifestly unfair if we were to impose upon these people penalties for not voting.

Mr. FOWLER.

Why could this difficulty not be obviated toy not holding elections on Saturday ?