I am not, but I will look it up.

Mr. FRASER.

It is the universal custom that after the officer sees his initials, he puts the paper in the box.

Mr. COCHRANE.

I don't want the custom; I want the law. The ballot belongs to the elector, and the officials should have nothing to do with it.

I am never sure of anything until I have seen the text, and I find now that I was right. It is the deputy returning officer who should place the ballot in the box. Then, in reference to the question of my hon. friend (Mr. Barker), paragraph 4 provides for the punishment of those who induce the voter to display his ballot paper. Any one who has arranged with the voter that when he comes to hand his ballot paper over to the deputy returning officer, or arranges that an elector shall show how he has marked his paper, is liable to the penalty provided for here. Cases have come to my knowledge in the election courts in which, by the aid of a window in the secret chamber where the ballot is marked, the voter puts his ballot on the glass so that a person outside may see how he has voted.

Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).

When we were asking the minister to amend this Bill, I suggested that each scrutineer or agent of a candidate should be allowed to place his initials or any distinguishing mark on the counterfoil, so that when the ballot was brought back by the voter each officer could see that it was the ballot which had been I given to him.

There is a stamp put on the back of the ballot.

'Mr. HUGHES (Victoria). That does not amount to a hill of beans. It is duplicated in many different ways, as the minister knows. I put that suggestion in writing at the time. I do not know whether it was brought before the committee or not.

I think section 5 is absolutely without effect, because there is no number on our ballot paper after the counterfoil has been detached. This has probably been adopted from the Ontario Act.

Mr. BARKER.

All these are questions affecting the secrecy of the ballot, and any person who interferes with that ought to receive all the punishment provided for here.

Mr. OLIVER.

I would like to follow the Minister of Justice in objecting to the penalty of disfranchisement. Provision is made for the punishment of a person who commits the offence, under the ordinary procedure of the court. The punishment which deprives the individual of his vote for seven years does not leave any latitude in regard to the nature of the offence. It is a minimum punishment, and it seems to me that if we consider that the offence is subject to a lighter or a heavier punishment, in the discretion of the court, it is hardly logical to make a minimum punishment of seven years' disfranchisement. For my own part, I object altogether to disfranchising the individual for any except the most grave reasons. If his punishment can be achieved by any other means, I would say certainly do not disfranchise him.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

Suppose a voter marks his ballot and, without any intention of doing wrong, takes it without folding it and hands it to the returning officer to put it in the box. Under this clause he Would be disfranchised for seven years without intending to do any wrong. That is done hundreds of times. The voter goes and marks his ballot paper and forgets his in-stuctions to fold it up, and hands it to the returning officer to fold it.

In a case of that kind actus non facit reum, nisi mens sit rea would apply, and there would be no offence.

Mr. BARKER.

If what is done in that way were made legal, there would be no good in the Bill at all ; any sort of fraud could be committed. A man who had sold his vote could simply, as has been said, open his ballot so that everybody could see it. If the ballot is to be of any effect at all it must be secret. If we are to fritter the whole system away by allowing men to show how they voted, we had better at once go back to open voting.

Progress reported.

Mr. HUGHES (Victoria).

At one o'clock, House took recess.

House resumed at three o'clock.

RAILWAY! SUBSIDIES.

House again in committee to consider certain proposed resolutions respecting the granting of the subsidies therein mentioned to certain railway companies.

To the Timagami Railway Company for a line of railway from a point at or near Sturgeon Falls in a north-westerly direction to a point on the westerly shore of Lake Timagami in the district of Nipissing, not exceeding fifty miles.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

What railway company is that ?

My recollection is that the charter is a provincial ' one. This has to do with the development of large pulp mills in the Nipissing district.

Hon. Mr. HAGGART.

Does the hon. gentleman know whether any subsidies were given by the provincial government to this line ?

Not to my knowledge.

Mr. HENDERSON.

How long will this road be when completed ? I understand we are only giving a subsidy to the extent of fifty miles.

This is from Sturgeon Falls, a station on the Canadian Pacific Railway, to Lake Timagami. It is for the purpose of opening up that district and bringing pulp wood to the large mills erected there by the Imperial Paper Company. These people recently invested a couple of million dollars in large pulp and paper mills and the government thinks this encouragement might be given them.

Mr. CLANCY.

Where are the pulp mills situated ?