June 10, 1904


Hon. RAYMOND PREFONTAINE (Minister of Marine and Fisheries. In answer to the statements made by the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Taylor) yesterday as regards the fisheries regulations, I beg to submit the following memorandum :-


For submission to parliament in reply to the inquiry of the honourable member for South Leeds, as to the fishery regulations in Ontario affecting American anglers visiting Canadian waters. The position of the matter is that since the decision of the Judicial Committee of the Imperial Privy Council In the fisheries reference, the Ontario government has assumed the right of disposal of the fisheries as a proprietary interest, by the issue of fishing permits and licenses, collecting the fees thereon, which had previously been done by the Dominion government. The exclusive right to make fishery laws and regulations, however, belongs to the federal government, and the Ontario government has been pressing for regulations which it regards as in the best interests of the fisheries asset which has become its property. Its wishes have to some extent been complied with when deemed expedient. In the case in point Mr. S. T. Bastedo, Ontario deputy commissioner of fisheries, visited Ottawa, and fully discussed certain proposed regulations with the Dominion commissioner of fisheries, which resulted in an appended Order in Council, 30th May, 1904. It will be observed that either Mr. Bastedo carried away with him a wrong impression of the exact significance of the intended regulations, or his letter is incorrectly quoted in the newspaper clipping read by the honourable gentleman ; as the inference may be drawn that only eight bass may be taken and that none may be carried home. Whereas, section 9 of the Order in Council fixes the number of fish to be taken at eight black bass, four maskinonge, twelve pickerel (dore) and four lake trout for each and every day ; while section 10 permits every day an

4580' aggregate catch of 10 pounds of speckled or brook trout ; but to be limited to thirty such trout, if too small to weigh 10 pounds in the aggregate. As to the question of the visitor taking his fish home, section 12, while providing against the sale and export of speckled trout, black bass and maskinonge, for five years, specially permits any person from a foreign country, fishing in the waters of the province, and applying and paying for an angler's permit, upon leaving, to take with him the lawful catch of two days' fishing. This would be sixteen black bass, eight maskinonge, twenty-four pickerel (dord), eight lake trout, and either 20 pounds of speckled or brook trout, or sixty such trout, if too small to aggregate 20 pounds. This would seem an ample and generous prize for any true sportsman to carry home with him. . So far as the department is advised, in the section of the river referred to by the honourable gentlemen, including the Thousand Islands, where arrangements were made between Canadian and American authorities before the Ontario government assumed the issue of permits, the latter government is allowing United States fishermen free angling, whereas in all other parts of the province, they are required to take out a license or permit for the season.


At the Government House at Ottawa, the 30th day of May, 1904. Present: The Governor General in Council. The Governor General in Council is pleased, in virtue of the provisions of section 16 of the Fisheries Act, chapter 95 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, to order that the General Fishery Regulations for the province of Ontario, established by the Order in Council of the 18th day of July, 1889, shall be and the same are hereby amended by adding thereto the following sections :- 9. No one shall fish for, catch or kill, in any of the waters of the province, in one day by angling, or shall carry away a greater number than eight small or large-mouthed black bass, four maskinonge, twelve pickerel (dore) or four lake trout. 10. No one shall fish for. catch or kill in any of the waters of the province, in one day by angling, or shall carry away a greater number of speckled trout or brook trout than in the aggregate shall weigh more than ten pounds, and no greater number than thirty speckled trout or brook trout, though said number weigh less than ten pounds. 11. No small or large-mouthed black bass less than ten inches in length ; no speckled trout less than six inches in length ; no pickerel (dore), less than fifteen inches in length, or no maskinonge less than thirty inches in length shall be retained or kept out of the water, sold, offered or exposed for sale or had in possession ; but any one who takes or catches any of the fish mentioned of less than the minimum measurement named, which measurement shall be from the point of the nose to the centre of the tail, shall immediately return such fish to the waters from which it was taken, alive and uninjured.


Joseph Raymond Fournier Préfontaine (Minister of Marine and Fisheries)



12. The sale and export of speckled trout, black bass and maskinonge, is hereby prohibited for a period of five years from the date of this Order in Council, provided, however, that any person from a foreign country fishing in the waters of the province, and applying and paying for an angler's permit, may, upon leaving the province, when the same are accompanied by him, take with him the lawful' catch of two days' fishing.

The Governor General in Council is further-pleased to order that any previous Orders in Council which are in conflict with these regulations be rescinded in so far as the province of Ontario is affected.

(Sgd.) JOHN J. McGEE.

Clerk of the Privy Council.




Alfred Alexander Lefurgey

Conservative (1867-1942)


I obtained an order of the House on April 25th for certain papers in connection with the Murray Harbour Railway and Hillsboro' branch. I call the attention of the Minister of Railways to the fact that they have not been brought down. On the 30th of May an order of the House was issued for certain letters and petitions with reference to a letter from the Minister of Marine dated the 22nd of April. On the same date I obtained an order of the House for returns with regard to the chicken fattening station, and also a further order for papers with regard to the Murray Harbour Railway and the Hillsboro' bridge. I would like to have these returns brought down at as early a date as possible. As the session is drawing to a close, we wish to get this information so that we may make some use of it.




Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)


Hon. SYDNEY A. FISHER (Minister of Agriculture).

In view of the question that was asked of the government yesterday, in regard to the matter referred to by Lord Dundonald on Saturday last, at a banquet held in Montreal, I have to make the following personal explanation

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to take this earliest opportunity permitted me to state the exact facts, in regard to the incidents referred to by the General Officer Commanding, Lord Dundonald, in his speech at the military banquet in Montreal, Saturday, the 4th instant.

In consequence of the reports which appeared in the press of Lord Dundonald's utterances, the Minister of Militia wrote the following note to the General Officer Commanding :

June 8, 1904.

Dear Lord Dundonald,-Will you be good enough to read the inclosed newspaper-clipping from this morning's ' Citizen ' and let me know if it correctly reports your utterances and the-attendant circumstances.

Yours very truly,

(Signed) F. W. BORDEN.

Rt. Hon.

The Earl of Dundonald,

Major General.

To -which Lord Dundonald replied as follows [DOT]

Militia Headquarters, Canada, June 8, 1904.

Dear Sir Frederick Borden,-I am obliged for the extract from this morning's 'Citizen.' Though I made some notes for my speech at Montreal, I did not refer in these notes to the 13th Light Dragoons or to Mr. Sydney Fisher, and have therefore nothing to refer to with regard to this portion of my speech beyond memory.

The 'Citizen' states that I.said:-

' A most flagrant instance of political Interference has recently come before me in connection with the appointment of officers in the new Eastern Township Cavalry regiment, the Scottish Light Dragoons. The commanding officer of the corps had selected officers because of their apparent fitness from a military point of view. The names reached me and were sent to council, and gentlemen, what do you think happened ? The list having my approval was returned with the name of one officer striken out, and initialled hy the Minister of Agriculture.

' The gentleman whose name was stricken from the list was Dr. Pickel, the mayor of Sweetsburg, and warden of the county of Mis-sisquoi, a man chosen of the people and well qualified to serve his King and country. His political colour was not, however, that of the Minister of Agriculture, and consequently he was not considered fit to serve his King in the military force of Canada.'

The above is substantially what I said, except that I also stated that Mr. Fisher interfered with the organization of the corps and with the names of other proposed officers as well as Dr. Pickel. With regard to the first portion of the extract you sent me I did not say that all appointments are made in the militia through political intrigue. The substance of -what I said, if my memory serves me right, w as that : ' In time of peace the hands of the general were liable to be embarrassed by political intrigue and consequently the interests of the country suffered.'

Yours very truly,


The Hon.

Sir Frederick Borden, K.C.M.G.,

Minister of Militia and Defence.

Ill regard to Lord Dundonald's general statement that I interfered with the organization of the corps and with the names of other proposed officers of the corps as well as Dr. Pickel's, let me say this : That the only grounds on -^vhich I made any suggestions in regard to the establishment of this corps were the immense importance of the appointment of leading officers with military qualifications, who knew the country find the people of the eastern townships, the district where the corps was to be established ; that I took no exception to anybody's appointment on political grounds alone as evidenced by my recommendation and endorsement of many well-known Conservatives ; that no one believes more thproughly than I do that the first necessity in the recommendation of officers on the establishment of a new regiment is military qualification, and general personal suit-146

ability, and that no political considerations should be allowed to interfere with this. Should occasion arise for the discussion of details in regard to these general statements, I shall be prepared to furnish them and to prove what I am now stating.

In regard to what Lord Dundonald calls ' a most flagrant instance of political interference,' through my having stricken the name of Dr. Pickel from the list recommended by him to the Minister of Militia, I have this to say. Lord Dundonald says :

' The gentleman whose name was stricken from the list was Dr. Pickel, the mayor of Sweetsburg, and warden of the county of Mis-sisquoi, a man chosen of the people and well qualified to serve his King and country. His political colour was not, however, that of the Minister of Agriculture, and consequently he was not considered fit to serve his King in the military force of Canada.'

In the list of proposed appointments signed by Lord Dundonald in which the item appears of Dr. P. A. Pickel to be major, there is an asterisk opposite his name and a foot-note stating :

' As a special case, and will be required to pass the qualifying examination.'^

When I first saw his name upon the list, knowing him personally and knowing something of military matters in the neighbourhood, I was aware that he had never been connected with the militia and had never shown any interest in military matters or participated in any such movement. I therefore suggested that his appointment as commander of a squadron should not be made.

Further, investigation confirmed me in this and also proved to the commanding officer who recommended his appointment that I was right. Dr. Pickel himself so appreciated this fact that he was reluctant to accept the position.-

On May 19th, in the absence from Ottawa of the Minister of Militia, the commanding officer of the regiment, Col. Smart, came to my office asking that I should press through council the passage of the general order authorizing these appointments. The next morning I received the following from Col. Pinault, Deputy Minister of Militia :


Ottawa. May 19. 1904.

Dear Mr. Fisher,-Will you kindly sign the inclosed, for the minister, and if possible have it passed to-day.

Very faithfully yours,



Hon. Sydney Fisher, Minister of Agriculture, Ottawa. Ont. At the same time I received from Col. Smart the following letter : . 13th Scottish Light Dragoons, Montreal, May 19, 1904. Dear Mr. Fisher,-Immediately on my return this evening I met Lieutenant-Colonel Whitley and discussed fully with him all matters in con-

nection with our interview of to-day. Colonel Whitley was pleased to learn that everything was arranged satisfactorily, and at his request I telephoned to Sweetsburg with a view of getting from Dr. Pickel his final answer as to whether or not It was his intention to remain in the squadron, because, as I stated to you to-day, he had intimated to me his lukewarmness in the matter. I now have his final decision, which is that he gives up all connection with the squadron. In accordance therefore with Dr. Pickel's request, I can now, as commanding officer of the regiment, request you to kindly make the change in the ' Gazette ' by leaving Dr. Pickel's name out. I sincerely hope that this will meet with your approval, and in view of the short time between now and date of camp, you will kindly see that all recommendations pass Council tomorrow. Thanking you for your kind consideration and assistance, believe me. Yours very sincerely, *


Lt.rCol. Commanding, 13th S. L. Dragoons. In view of above, I certainly recommend that Lieutenant-Colonel Smart's suggestion he followed FRED. WHITLEY, Lt.-Col. Commanding, Eastern Townships Cavalry Brigade. Montreal, Maj 19, 1904. X signed It and sent the recommendation with the following note to the Clerk of the Privy Council : Ottawa, May 20, 1904. Dear Mr. McGee,-I send you a recommendation from the Department of Militia and Defence which I have signed for Sir Frederick Borden. He and I have discussed this matter and agreed that this should be put through. You will note that I have stricken out one of the appointments to be Major, F. H. Pickel. 1 have received a letter from the colonel who made these recommendations,, saying that Mr. Pickel does not wish to have his name included. . If you would be kind enohgh to make an order on these recommendations so as to put it through to-day, you will much oblige, as the Militia Department is very anxious to have it put through. * Yours very truly,


J. J. McGee, Esq., Clerk of the Privy Council, Ottawa. This is a simple statement of the facts, or the case, which, without referring in any way to the propriety of the General Officer Commanding discussing in public official recommendations, without referring to the broad question of propriety of an official of the government of Canada criticising the official action of a member of that government- absolutely disapproves the charge that for political reasons I had undertaken to strike out a name which had been submitted to the Minister of Militia for appointment in the service.


Hon. S@

Mr. Speaker, as my name has been referred to in connection Mr. FISHER.

with this matter, I crave the indulgence of yourself and the House to make a personal explanation. I confirm literally and entirely the statement just made by my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher). He had for several years advocated the organization of a mounted force in the Eastern Townships-his own home and that par.', of the Dominion, in the general good government of which he has a right to feel a special interest-and when the time came to take the question up, I naturally looked to him for advice and assistance. And let me say at once that recognizing myself to bo the man upon Whom-and upon whom alone -the entire responsibility rests to this parliament and to the Canadian people for the proper administration of the militia, I am always desirous of consulting everybody, whether colleague, member of parliament, officer or private citizen, who is willing to offer advice, or from whom I am likely to gain information. I was aware that Lt.-Col. Whitley, one of the ablest and most efficient cavalry officers in Canada, had been consulted with reference to the organization of the proposed new cavalry regiment mentioned iu the Montreal speech of the General Officer Commanding, and also that Lt.-Col. C. A. Smart had been recommended by Lt.-Ool. Whitley and the General and approved by me as commanding officer thereof. Toward the eud of March last T wrote to Lt.-Col. Whitley, expressing a desire to .see him. Having learned afterwards that he was in England, I requested the General to suspend 4.1ie work of organization until Lt.-Col. Whitley's return, having previously explained the reasons to the military secretary, for the information of the General. About the end of April Lt.-Col. Whitley returned, and early in May brought Lt.-Col. Smart to Ottawa to have a conference with me. This conference was of a most pleasant and satisfactory character. Both officers expressed a strong desire to have the general order containing the appointments connected with the organization of the regiment, with its several squadrons, put through promptly, in order that the regiment might be able to go to camp this year. This I promised to do. Finding that I would be obliged to he absent from Ottawa from the 18th to the 20th of May, I instructed my deputy to take the general crder containing the proposed list of appointments, so soon as completed, to my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, to be by him submitted to Council, in view of the urgency of the case. I telegraphed to Lt.-Col. Whitley to meet me at Montreal on my way from Ottawa to Nova Scotia, which he did. He then repeated his previous request as to the necessity for putting the appointments through immediately. I lold him of the instructions I had given my deputy, and asked him to go- to Ottawa to assist in the final adjustment of the list. He promised to do so or send Lt.-Col. Smart.

My colleague has already stated what followed.


June 10, 1904