Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

I am not aware of that being the ease ; they were not found available in the British War Office, and they are very much less likely to be available here.

Mr. SAM. HUGHES.

You are describing the British system now ?

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

Yes. That is the system which I propose to inaugurate in this country. Of course, the conditions being changed, it was necessary to change some of the provisions with reference to the formation and working out of the system. The Militia Council, as I say, will be composed of seven members, as is the Army Council-four military, three civil. The Minister for the time being will be the chairman ; the principal military officer will be known as the Chief of the General Staff. Then there will be the Adjutant General, the Quartermaster-General and the Master-General of Ordnance. The two additional civilians would be the Deputy Minister and, probably, the Chief Accountant of the Department.

Mr. SAM. HUGHES.

Why not have the Finance Minister of Canada ?

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

My hon. friend will have an opportunity of criticising these proposals later on.

Mr. SAM HUGHES.

Or the Auditor General ?

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

That might add to the harmony of things. The minister in this way will have the advantage of being surrounded by his officers, by all the leading men representing the leading departments of the militia service. He will be in constant touch with his officers, and will, for the first time, have an opportunity of knowing exactly what is going on. He will have an opportunity of hearing and exchanging opinions with the technical men. which-if he happens to be an inexperienced man when he comes into office, as he is very likely to be-will be a very great advantage to him.

Mr. FOWLER.

As I understand this advisory council, it is to consist of men in the service of the department.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

Yes.

Mr. FOWLER.

Are you not iu the position to call on them now ? Would it not be better to have men from the outside ?

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

I am discussing a change which involves dispensing altogether with the services of

the General Officer Commanding, and the council will be largely in substitution of that office. With reference to the question

63(59

which my hon. friend has Just put, I might answer it by pointing to the experience which I have had, and the correspondence in connection with which I read to this House three or four years ago, over a controversy with the General Officer Commanding. I was under the impression that I had the right to consult any officer in my department, and I was doing so when I discovered that an order had been sent out by the General Officer Commanding to each one of these gentlemen not to come to my office without his permission, and after they had come with his permission and discussed matters with me. they were immediately to go back to him and tell him every word that had taken place.

Mr. SAM. HUGHES.

Would the minister kindly name the general ?

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

I think my hon. friend knows who it was. It was General Hutton.

You have

heard of him.

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

1 may say in addition that I blame the system. These men come here with the idea that they are to command, and that every officer in the Dominion is absolutely under them and them alone, and they are jealous of any interference even by the minister. They) object apparently to the minister, who is responsible to parliament and the people, having any direct communication with the officers under him. That is one of the difficulties of the system. It is a difficulty which was found to prevail in England and rendered the system there unworkable. The same difficulty exists here to a very much greater degree. I do not know that I need go further into the Bill just now, because I think the better way Is to discuss the section as it comes up. In the discussion we bad, many suggestions of importance were made, and I have endeavoured in the new sections to meet these as far as possible. When I introduced the Bill I said we would drop the word ' Defence,' from the old title of ' Militia and Defence.' I have ascertained from the officers of my department that this change is undesirable, because it would render useless large quantities of forms.

Mr. FOWLER.

Would not there eventually be a saving in the amount of printing by the omission of this useless word ?

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

We have a great many forms printed now. I move, therefore, that the title of the Bill be made to read ' An Act respecting the Department of Militia and Defence.'

Mr. SAM. HUGHES.

Does that mean that we have given up the idea of a navy V

Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.

No.

Mr. SAM. HUGHES.

Or has it been handed over to the Minister of Agriculture V 2031

The hon. minister has just told us that these men come over here with the idea that they are to command, and objects to the minister interfering with the officers under him. Will he give some instances to illustrate that other than General Hutton ?