Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.
I am afraid my hon. friend will have to take my statement, which is the result of my experience.
Mr. SAM. HUGHES.
I think that these gentlemen's reputations are of as much value to them as the minister's is to him. if they have been unfair or unreasonable, we should know, but it is hardly fair to General O'Grady-Haly or Lord Dundonald or any of the others, that a general reflection such as this should be made which might apply to any one of them.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.
What I said was that I blamed the system and not the individual, and when I mentioned General Hutton in reply to the question put by my hon. friend, I had no intention of being drawn into any personal controversy with reference to any of these General Officers Commanding. I knew that the hon. member for Victoria does not object in the slightest degree to any unpleasant or unfavourable remarks regarding General Hutton, and as the matter affecting that general had come before the House, and was on record, I referred to the correspondence. I have said that the system is unworkable, but that implies no reflection on the officers themselves. They were sent out, as they supposed, to command. Every officer in Canada is under them, every officer of the Headquarters Staff is under them, but under the new system there will be no question of rank affecting this Military Council. That is carefully left out. The men who come in will come in on an equal footing and,their position will be altogether different from that of the General Officer Commanding.
Mr. SAM. HUGHES.
The hon. minister has made a statement in regard to myself that I cannot allow to pass. He said that he knew that his hon.
friend, meaning myself, would take no objection to anything unpleasant which he might say regarding General Hutton. I have been fair to General Hutton throughout the length and breadth of the British empire, and what I would object to in General Hutton I would object to in Lord Dundonald. I do object to any commanding officer coming to this country and seeking to arrogate to himself functions that belong to the people of Canada, but we must be just as careful that the minister in charge of the department' does not arrogate to himself functions that do not belong to him. I have been absolutely fair to General Hutton, and I do not think the ,hon. minister has any right to make the statement that I have been unfair to him.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.
What I say is that this is part of the system. The system is to blame. I do not blame any one in particular, but under the system, as it now exists, the commanding officer commands every officer in Canada and nobody knows better than my hon. friend what that means in the matter of discipline. It is a very difficult position to place an officer in to expect him to be entirely satisfied that officers acting in a subordinate capacity under him shall come to the minister as often as they choose, or as often as he may wish to see them, to consult about matters about which he thinks they ought to be consulted. I am not finding any fault. I am sorry if I have been unable to make myself understood. I am not blaming any officer in particular ; I am blaming the system and it is the system we propose to change.
Mr. FOWLER.
W'ould the hon. minister kindly state again the officers who are to form a council ?
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.
I will mention them when we get to that clause.
Mr. INGRAM.
The hon. minister tells us that he proposes to change the system and adopt that which is recommended in England. Would not the conditions in connection with the militia of England be so Mr. SAM. HUGHES.
different from what they are in Canada that we could hardly apply the same system ?
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.
No doubt the conditions would be different, but not so very different. I am not speaking without the book. I have taken the pains to consult some of the most eminent military authorities in England as well as in this country, and they agree that while there may be some difficulties and that while some alterations may have to be made in applying the system, it can be applied here equally as well as in England.
Mr. INGRAM.
In having read the document the hon. gentleman has referred to, it is a very extensive document and it refers particularly to the system in England. It occurred to me at the time I read it that the conditions were so very different here from those which exist in England as to make it difficult to apply the same system.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.
I think that so far as the reconstitution of the Headquarters Staff is concerned the conditions are similar to those of the War Office in England, and I cannot see any difficulty at all on that score. All my hon. friends who have written me on the subject and some of the most eminent military authorities agree that there will be no difficulty whatever in applying the system so far as the W nr Office is concerned. When it comes to the question of decentralization it may be that we shall not be able to go as far in this country as they have gone in England. I do not think that policy can be carried out in connection with the militia force as easily as in connection with the regular army.
Mr. INGRAM.
Under the proposed amendment of the Militia Act which has been brought down by the hon. Minister of Militia and Defence, it is optional whether we have a commanding officer from England or not. I judge from the tone of the hon. gentleman's language to-day that it is not intended to have a Major General from England in the future. Coupling the change in the system which it is proposed to adopt with the language the hon. gentleman has used are we correct in assuming that we are not in the future to have a General Officer Commanding ?
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.
Under the system there will be no General Officer Commanding. There is no Commander in Chief in England to-day and there will be no General Officer Commanding here. There would be a first military officer known as the Chief of the General Staff, the most important military officer in the country as he is to-day the most important military officer in England, except some of the generals commanding in chief in some of the large districts. Under the new system we would have more
important commands than we have to-day. Decentralization would be carried out to some extent, perhaps not to the same extent as in England, so that officers commanding districts would have much greater powers than they have at the present moment, and properly so, because these men, if they are ever to be fit to comamnd, must have experience in times of peace which will enable them to perform the duties which may (be required of them in times of war.
Mr. INGRAM.
Is not that one of the very reasons why we require an experienced man in this country The officers of Canada have not had experience in handling large bodies of men, and for that reason it seems to me that we should have an English officer of experience in this country. You will have four or five of these officers and if so are there in that number any who are capable of handling large bodies of men ?
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.
I believe there are. I believe, however, that if we never make the attempt we never will learn. Our officers must have experience. I believe they can learn if given an opportunity. They have not been given an opportunity. We think that under this system we shall be able to develop our men. especially as we have been able to make an arrangement with the War Office by which two places are to be given each year to Canadian officers to enable them to learn their duties in the Staff College in England. We shall, after this. I hope, always have two of our men at the Staff College in England learning the staff duties.
On section 2, paragraph (f),
' General Orders ' means orders and instructions issued to the militia by the General Officer Commanding, with the approval of the Minister of Militia.
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.
I move to strike out the words ' by the General Officer Commanding.' >
Mr. SAM. HUGHES.
Does that mean that the minister will issue orders ?
Sir FREDERICK BORDEN.
They will be issued by the Council.
Mr. FOWLER.
This clause gives power to the minister to issue orders. Suppose the Minister of Agriculture was acting Minister of Militia again ; he got the country into one mess already, and under this he could issue any orders lie likes; perhaps to take the heads of these officers down to Sweets-burg.