Hon. GEO. E. FOSTER.

Before we go into Supply, I would ask the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Emmerson) if he will kindly facilitate the return to an order of the House in reference to the hay transported on the Intercolonial Railway. We would like to have it as soon as we possibly can.

It. EMMERSON. I mav say that the papers very largely were at Moncton and the certificates have to be gathered up at the different points all along the line. This requires considerable work, but we are expediting it.

Mr. FOSTER.

Before we go on I would like to suggest to the minister that it would be well to take up first those departments on which we have the Auditor General's Repoit. The other night we went! on with some of the subsidies as to which that was not the case, but I think it was with the understanding that we should confine ourselves to those until we had worked out the departments on which the Auditor General had reported. The Department of Public-Works is in this category. With regard to some at least of the steamship subsidies, we would like to have the Auditor General's Report before we pass from them. Of course, if the minister has a mind to go on with them, and let such items stand as we want a little more information on. the House having the privilege of taking any of them up again when the Auditor General's Report is down, I think that would be satisfactory.

Mr. PATERSON.

If the hon. member w ill agree to take up the steamship subsidies to-day, I think it will please the Minister of Public Works who is very busy in his department to-day, and who asked me as a special favour to go on with these. Tomorrow he will be ready to go on with his estimates. We will take what we can, with the full understanding that we may go back, as the hon. gentleman suggests.

Steam communication during the season ot 1905, i.e., from the opening to the closing of navigation, between Prince Edward Island and the mainland, $12,500.

Mr. LANCASTER.

Mr. PATERSON.

There is no change. The date of the contract is the 15th of March, 1900; it expires the 31st of December, 1905. The contractors are the Charlottetown Steam Navigation Co.. The steamships are the 'Northumberland,' of 1,255 tons gioss, and the ' Princess,' of 541 tons gross. The terminal ports are Charlottetown, P.E.I., and Pictou, N.S.; Summerside, P.E. I., and Point du Chene, N.B. The speed of the ' Princess ' is 121 knots and that of the ' Northumberland ' 15 knots. They provide a daily service between the points mentioned and a full round trip and they carry the mails.

Mr. A. MARTIN.

Has the department any proposals with regard to putting on a new boat and increasing the subsidy?

Mr. PATERSON.

Communications have passed between the company and the department and they are under consideration, but no change is involved in the vote now asked for. If another boat were put on or a new contract made, it would be necessary, I think, to have a supplementary vote.

Mr. A. MARTIN.

Is the contract renewed?

Mr. PATERSON.

I suppose the contract could be renewed during the summer.

Mr. A. MARTIN.

I may state that the Board of Trade of Charlottetown passed a resolution complaining of the high rates which shippers and passengers have to pay on these boats. They also complain that while the company has a very good boat on the Summerside route, the ' Princess', which at present runs between Charlottetown and Pictou, is one which has outlasted her usefulness to a great extent, and that the large increase of trade between those two points require a much larger boat. I understand Hat the company are willing to put on a much larger boat, but they cannot do it with the subsidy now given. I notice that the subsidy immediately preceding this one, for communication between the mainland and the Magdalen Islands, amounts to $15,000. I am not complaining of that, but the minister and the House know that the service between Prince Edward Island and the mainland is one which the Dominion government is pledged by the terms of confederation to maintain, and the sums voted for it are ridiculously small. This steam navigation company has done a great service to the province, but the accommodation at Charlottetown at present is not equal to what the public demands. I may say that the freight on 100 lbs. of goods of the first class from St. John, N.B., to Sydney, a distance of 400 miles, is only 30c, whereas the rate from St. John to Charlottetown, a distance of only 190 miles, is 59c. This large rate is to a great extent owing to the heavy freights charged by this company, but the company says there is no remedy unless the subsidy is increased. I hope, therefore,

that when the supplementary estimates come down there will be a further vote to increase this subsidy. The trade between the province and the mainland is rapidly increasing, and it requires much better accommodation than is at present provided, especially between Charlottetown and Pic-tou.

Mr. EDWARD M. MACDONALD.

With inference to the request of my hon. friend from Queen's, I would like to point out that there is one condition in regard to this proposed vote which seems to be applicable to every proposition that relates to communication between Prince Edward Island and the mainland. That is the proposition that these boats and services should be conducted entirely in the interests of Prince Edward Island, and for the sole benefit of the people of that province. I may say that those who are interested in the company which owns the boats for which this vote has been given belong entirely to Prince Edward Island. My hon. friend is quite right in stating that the service is inefficient, and that the boat now running between Charlottetown and Pictou is not at all satisfactory or fitted to cope with the large trade which has grown up and the passenger traffic between the two points. But this company has earn-' ed large dividends and has a large amount at rest, which it proposes to utilize for the purpose of obtaining a new boat; and those who live on the mainland and have occasion sometimes to visit this garden of the gulf would like to see these gentlemen who own the boats which are earning these large dividends run them with some consideration for the requirements of the people who have not the advantage of living in that favoured locality, and the government should see that they do so before granting any further favours. Should any one who happens to live on the mainland desire to visit the island, he cannot do so in less than three days, both going and returning, no matter from what part of Nova Scotia he may start. Therefore, before this company is given the slightest increase of subsidy, the government should see that it runs its boats from Charlottetown to Pictou in such a way that people living in Nova Scotia will be able to go to Charlottetown and return within twenty-four hours at least. There is no particular reason why that should not be done, and no reason why the population in Nova Scotia and the maritime provinces generally should not receive some attention from the management of this service. I need hardly remind my hon. friend that this particular company, not so very long ago, was very active in opposing before this parliament a proposition to give another company a charter to engage in this same service ; and I am therefore not asking anything unreasonable when I ask that the government shall insist, before giving this company any additional subsidy or renewal

of contract on its placing upon the route between Charlottetown and Pictou a larger and more commodious steamer than the one it has at present. And further, that this company should be compelled to so arrange the sailings of its boats that it would be possible for any one to leave Pictou in the morning and go to Charlottetown and return at night, instead of following the present system of having both boats leave the island in the morning, thus rendering it impossible for any one to get to and fro in any period less than three days.

Mr. A. MARTIN.

I agree with my hon. friend that when the government subsidizes these boats their hours of sailing should be subject to -the approval of the government. The allegation that the company is very wealthy, is one that is considerably disputed, and I am not aware that it is a matter of record that it has a large rest. If any company in Nova Scotia is ready to take hold of the service, there is nothing to prevent their getting to work ; but hitherto the boat on the Summerside route has given every satisfaction, although I must say that the boat on the route between Charlottetown and Pictou is not at all adequate for the traffic, and should be replaced by a better one. Whether or not the service can be performed with the present subsidy is very doubtful, especially if the freights are kept as low as they are on other routes. We contend that the rates from any point in Canada to any point in Charlottetown should not exceed any charged on the Intercolonial Railway in other parts of Canada. Prince Edward Island has suffered extremely in that respect. The freights on those boats are extremely high. Whether that be due to the fact that the subsidy is not large enough, is one on which I am not prepared to express an opinion, but the subsidy is certainly not large. I see that we give a much larger subsidy to the service to Magdalen Island. I hope, however, that the hon. minister will see that some improvement is effected, and that is the only reason why I call his attention to the matter.

Mr. PATERSON.

I take it that no fault was found with the steamer which runs between Summerside and .Point Du Chene. which makes fifteen knots an hour, but that it is the boat which runs between Pictou and Charlottetown, that only makes twelve knots an hour, that is complained of.

Steam communication from July 1st, 1905, to June 30th, 1906, between Grand Manan and the mainland, $5,000.

Mr. PATERSON.

There is no change in that.