April 5, 1905

LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Hr. EMMERSON.

If you put it under the control of the Railway Commission, as has been suggested by some lion, gentlemen, then you would affect the local rates over the present portion of the Intercolonial.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
L-C

Andrew B. Ingram

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. INGRAM.

Making them higher ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. EMMERSON.

I am not going to say, I do not know ; they may be affected either way. But at any rate, whatever government is controlling the Intercolonial is supposed to run the road in the interest of the people.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
L-C

Andrew B. Ingram

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. INGRAM.

Is that the objection the hon. gentleman has to allowing the commission to control the rates on the Intercolonial, because the commission might increase the rates ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. EMMERSON.

That question does not arise.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
L-C

Andrew B. Ingram

Liberal-Conservative

Mr. INGRAM.

The question does arise. The hon. gentleman talks about pro rata rates as between Parry Sound and Montreal, and says they will be entitled to pro rata rates between those points, as the government would be entitled to them over the Intercolonial on a long haul. I venture to make this statement in the House now, that the government will not receive pro rata rates on their portion of the line, they will not get the same rates as they will over that portion from Montreal to Parry Sound controlled by the commission. When the test comes the hon. gentleman will find my statement to be correct.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
IND

William Findlay Maclean

Independent Conservative

Mr. W. E. MACLEAN.

Might I ask the minister what the mileage is, roughly, of the Canada Atlantic Railway over which he proposes to take running rights ? Would he also say, when he announced it as the intention of the government to have their own terminals, whether that would include the erection of elevators on the Georgian bay ports ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. EMMERSON.

When the Bill is introduced and I have occasion to explain the details, I will have the information the hon. gentleman asks for.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
CON

William Humphrey Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT.

While I do not propose to object to the Bill, I wish to call the minister's attention to the plan that was formulated a few years ago by the government, and which I regret was not carried into effect, with regard to certain railway

rights in that portion of the country. What 1 refer to is this : The Grand Trunk Railway Company are owners of a line of rail-i way running from Midland to Peterborough, and when the Hon. Mr. Tarte was Minister of Public Works, he visited the town of Midland and announced that it was then the policy of the government, acting conjointly with the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Grand Trunk, to acquire certain rights over that line from Peterborough to Midland. That would place both the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Grand Trunk in touch with the Georgian bay. The hon-j gentleman may recall the fact that the Canadian Pacific Railway runs directly from Montreal, passing Peterborough on to Toronto. Any grain that may be carried by the Canadian Pacific Railway to their port at Owen Sound, is thus carried to Toronto, then to Peterborough and on eastward to Montreal. The Grand Trunk has several towns on the Georgian bay which are fed by the grain trade, namely, Meaford, Col-lingwood and Midland, and lines running through those points carry grain to Peterborough and thence on to the main line of the Grand Trunk. Now, the minister has not stated, and of course it is not fair that the House should expect him to state, what remuneration or profit he expects will be paid by the government for running rights over these lines commonly known as the Booth system. From Parry Sound to Ottawa the distance is 263 miles. While I do not wish to say anything disparaging of the Canada Atlantic Railway system, I think it will be conceded that the line is not now up to the standard for the carriage of heavy trains, and of necessity a large amount of money will have to be spent by the Grand Trunk, acting conjointly with the government, in order to bring this road up to the standard.

That mileage will be 263 miles and a large amount of money would have of necessity to be expended in that behalf. If the government-and I am only throwing this out at the present time as a suggestion for their consideration-would acquire running rights over the branch of the Grand Trunk Railway from Midland to Peterborough they would then have to pay a portion of the cost of improving that road. The mileage of that road, I think, is somewhere near 100 miles, so that only 100 miles of railway would have to be improved at the cost of the Grand Trunk and the Dominion as against 263 miles from Parry *Sound to Ottawa. Let me point this out to the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals that between Ottawa and Parry Sound there is practically an unbroken waste of country. There is not a town on the whole system, although there are villages of considerable importance, whereas, between Midland and Peterborough there are large towns. There are the towns of Orillia, Peterborough and

Lindsay, all towns doing a large amount of business and there are also numerous villages to which I need not particularly refer. If it is going to be the policy of the government to pay to the Grand Trunk Railway Company, and they must of necessity pay to the Grand Trunk Railway Company a large sum of money in this connection, it means that Canada is going to assist to the extent of improving 203 miles a railway which is not to-day up to the same standard of excellence as the line between Peterborough and Midland and which is 170 odd miles longer. Whether the Canada Atlantic Railway or the Midland division is utilized, the Grand Trunk will be benefited, but the Canadian Pacific Railway will have a more beneficial interest in the government adopting the Midland division because instead of carrying grain from Owen Sound to Toronto and from Toronto to Peterborough, a distance of some 225 miles, they will carry it by the short haul from Midland to Peterborough and then strike their main line at that point. The matter is of great interest to all those counties through which this division of the Grand Trunk Railway runs- Simcoe, Victoria and Peterborough. My hon. friend (Mr. Cochrane) also suggests the county of Northumberland for the reason that there is a line from Peterborough to Belleville and by reason of that fact it will also interest the county of Hastings with the considerable city of Belleville. There is a branch line of the Grand Trunk from Peterborough to Belleville and the bulk of the grain carried by the Grand Trunk Railway from Georgian Bay ports is carried to Peterborough and is then in turn carried to Belleville over this road which is known, I believe, as the Grand Junction Railway. But, there are other advantages in the government utilizing the Midland division of the Grand Trunk Railway, a noticeable feature of which would be the very desirable harbour they would become possessed of. I do not know whether the lion. Minister of Railways and Canals has been at Depot Harbour, the terminus of the Canada Atlantic Railway, but if he has he will bear me out in saying that it is a harbour that has accommodation of the most limited nature. The bay is haidly over a quarter of a mile in length, and the amount of dockage for boats is of the most limited character, while at Midland, owing to the fact that the Grand Trunk Railway, with foresight, have practically possessed themselves of the bulk of the water frontage, there is to-day dockage not only for the Canadian Pacific Railway, the Grand Trunk Railway and the Intercolonial Railway, but probably for half a dozen other lines. A line of elevators could be erected at that point probably with a frontage of nearly three-quarters of a mile with the necessary water depth sufficient to make the harbour accessible to the largest vessel on the lake. There is another advantage to be had too it is ap-Mr. BENNETT.

proachable at all times, and that there are no rocks or shoals outlying. If the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals happened to be in the House the other evening, and he in all probability was, when the estimates of the Department of Marine and Fisheries were being passed in respect to the buoy service, he will know that it costs some $2,500 a year to properly light and buoy the vessels coming into Depot Harbour. Again, let me point out that if you utilize the port of Depot Harbour, you do not improve the facilities, or advance the interests of any other harbour on the Georgian bay. It is confined strictly and solely to Depot Harbour, but, if, on the other hand, you should adopt the policy of government control, or government interference, or whatever you may term it, in reference to the Midland division of the Grand Trunk, just as soon as that line leaves Midland on its way to Peterborough you interest not only the town of Midland but the towns of Col-lingwood and Meaford, and I want to call the attention of the minister and the members of the House to the fact that these are towns of considerable importance. The town of Collingwood has a large established trade, it has a large passenger trade with well established lines of steamers which have been running for a number of years. The government has expended a large amount of money and a large amount of money has also been expended at Meaford. These two harbours are greatly to be benefited by the trade of the Grand Trunk Pacific which, if everything turns out as has been prophesied, will be very considerable. We all hope it will grow into millions and millions and it cannot with any great advantage be all carried by way of Depot Harbour, while on the other hand, by the government acquiring or being interested in the Midland division of the Grand Trunk Railway, you will then have accessible harbours at Collingwood, Meaford and Midland, all three, as against this single harbour. I hope the hon. minister will lay the view which I have submitted to the committee before his colleagues and when the matter does come up in the House again I will endeavour to place my views before the House, and I trust that hon. gentlemen representing districts along the line of the Midland division of the Grand Trunk Railway and those interested in different points on the Georgian bay will press strongly for the adoption of the scheme of utilizing the Midland division of the Grand Trunk between Peterborough and Midland rather than spending a large sum of money on this 263 miles of railway between Depot Harbour and Ottawa. I may say to the hon. minister that the country through which the Canada Atlantic Raihvay passes is practically a barren country ; it is not an agricultural country. You never can expect to have any local trade along that railway. That is patent to-day owing to the fact that

no towns have been formed. Some lumbering has been carried on but this is almost at an end and the lumbering operations will soon cease. The Canada Atlantic Railway will therefore only be used mainly as a through grain carrying route. But as a grain carrying route it will be more desirable to utilize the line of communication between Midland and Peterborough from a point which is common to the Canadian Pacific Railway and to the Grand Trunk Railway, utilizing all the ports of the Georgian bay which have had large expenditures of money made upon them and at which there are towns of very considerable importance.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

Is it proposed that the government shall engage in local business on the line between Montreal and Parry Sound ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. EMMERSON.

I think I have fulfilled my promise in making a general announcement to the House as to the policy of the government. On Friday, when the Bill is introduced, I will explain all the details and give my hon. friend the information which he asks.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

Perhaps the hon. gentleman can answer one or two other matters-just as he sees fit-if he is not prepared to answer now' he can give us the information on Friday.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. EMMERSON.

I would prefer to do it on Friday.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

If the hon. gentleman were ready to furnish \the information now we could digest it a little better by Friday. The question of whether or not the government should do local business or only purely through business ought to be one' of the first things to engage attention before entering upon a project of this kind. The hon. gentleman says that the terms of every description are to be left to the Railway Commission.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. EMMERSON.

The running arrangements ; the same as respects other roads.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
LIB

Frederick William Borden (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Liberal

Mr. R. E. BORDEN.

What is the scheme exactly ? Is it that the government will run its own trains over the line from Montreal to Parry Sound ; is that the idea ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. EMMERSON.

That would be the idea.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
CON

Robert Laird Borden (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

Is it proposed to establish divisional points and keep train crews at different places, and operate the road to all intents and purposes ns if it were a government road ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
LIB

Henry Robert Emmerson (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. EMMERSON.

So far as the Intercolonial Railway trains are concerned.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink
?

Mr. R. L.@

BORDEN, Then you will have to do pretty much everything you would have to do if-you had bought the line outright and were operating it.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   PRIVATE BILLS.
Sub-subtopic:   GRAND TRUNK RAILWAY.
Permalink

April 5, 1905