April 6, 1905

CON

Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BERGERON.

I will take the hon. gentleman's word. I do not know if he signed it or not ; and if he did not, I do not know why he did not sign it. I will take the testimony of my hon. friend. The bishop might have said : Why do you not vote for your own compatriot ? But it was never-done. My opponent addressed large meetings of my compatriots, although he c-ould not speak their own language very well.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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?

An hon. MEMBER.

He spoke well.

Mr. 'BERGERON. He may have spoken well on the hustings, but he was not a Demosthenes or a Cicero. I never took advantage of this fact. Our people w-ould listen to him most politely, and never did I ask one man directly or indirectly that he should give me his support on account of my nationality. I was sorry to hear my hon. friend from Pictou-I hope it was a slip of the tongue-call the bishops of Quebec Tory machines,

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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LIB

Jacques Bureau

Liberal

Mr. BUREAU.

Why did not you correct your friend from South York (Mr. W. F. Maclean) when he called the Papal ablegate a policeman.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BERGERON.

If my hon. friend (Mr. Bureau) will allow- me I will take care of my own conscience. My hon. friend from Three Rivers is not afraid of anything or any body, and he can deal directly with the member for South York. I do not approve of everything the member for South York says or does, tout he is not responsible to me.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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LIB

Duncan Ross

Liberal

Mr. DUNCAN ROSS.

Before the hon. gentleman goes further-the hon. member for Pictou is not here, and if I remember aright he did not call the bishops of Quebec, Tory machines, but, he quoted from the law- reports a statement in which those words were used.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BERGERON.

That may be and ' Hansard ' may show it, but I heard the statement that the bishops of Quebec were Tory machines, and I took a note of it. The Minister of Customs spoke about prosperity and the great things that have been done since 1896. That is all very good but all tile same it is very painful and regret-

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table to see wliat is going on in the country today. There is no question but that this country to-day stands upon a volcano ; a most dangerous question is agitating the people. Hon. gentlemen opposite may say that it is the fault of gentlemen on this side of the House, and I may say that it is the fault of gentlemen on the other side, but there is blame on both sides, if not in the House in the country. I say it is a most unfortunate state of things, and I am sorry to have to lay it at the door of my right hon. friend. It is all due to the policy which he followed in 1896. He let it be spread broadcast throughout the Dominion that he was opposed to the hierarchy and to any clerical influence. He said, or he let it be said that the Liberal party in Quebec had been fighting the clergy ever since that party existed, and that at least they had conquered the hierarchy. The right hon. gentleman obtained a great name for himself in the English provinces because of this and that is why they thought when they saw clause 16 of the original Bill that the Prime Minister had fallen from a very high place, it is that which has created the trouble we now hear of in the country.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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LIB

Charles Fitzpatrick (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

How did the Prime Minister fall down ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BERGERON.

Because in the English provinces in 1896 the right hon. gentleman was put on a very high pedestal in view of the stand he took, and when he tell he fell from a higher position in their opinion, than in 1896, if he remained with the rest of us who desired to give justice to the minority of Manitoba.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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LIB

Henri Sévérin Béland

Liberal

Mr. BELAND.

What do you consider to be his fault ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BERGERON.

The newspapers which were full of compliments to the right hon. gentleman two or three years ago, now publish the most extraordinary statements about him, and say, he is not the man they expected him to be. That is what I call falling, in my estimation.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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LIB

Henri Sévérin Béland

Liberal

Mr. BELAND.

In your estimation.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BERGERON.

I am not speaking of myself ; I am stating the reason why there is so much turmoil in the country to-day. I tell my hon. friend the Minister of Justice for his own justification, that when clause 16 was put in the Bill, whether with or without consultation with any one, and, I would not blame him if he had consultation, when it was put in the Bill he should not have dropped it. My hon. friends from Quebec who stand behind the Prime Minister were ready to accept clause 16 and now are ready to accept the amended clause which is almost the reverse of what was provided for in clause 16. My hon. friends from Quebec know very well that the amended clause which we are now discussing cannot be a

very good clause for the minority when the member for Brandon (Mr. Sifton) accepts it. The member for Brandon resigned because clause 16 was in the original Bill and now that he accepts the substituted clause it is quite plain that the new clause cannot be in favour of the Catholics of the Northwest. I tell the Minister of Justice that it would have been a great deal better for the country, and it would not be any worse for the minority in the Northwest Teritories, if there had been nothing at all mentioned about schools in the Bill, than that the original clause should have been withdrawn and this one substituted. My impression is, and there are some good lawyers who say so, that the Northwest Territories would have come in confederation with the schools, not the schools they have to-day, but with the schools provided for in the Act of 1875' and which was never repealed, although some ordinances had been placed upon the regulations by the Northwest legislature. If my hon friend had omitted the school clause and allowed the Act of 1875 to come into operation, the country would not have been in the condition it is in to-day ; a condition which is very dangerous. For weeks and weeks we have been talking what V- talking nationality, talking religion when we have been living together for over 150 years. I hope in the interest of the country this will be the last occasion on which such a discussion will take place. I think this is the last question of the kind that will arise. Surely we are not going to buy another province ? These two are the last that we can organize and I hope this is the last occasion on which we will have such a discussion and that henceforth we shall work like patriotic Canadians, working separately, on different sides of the House, but working sincerely in the united effort to do what we believe to be best in the interests of the country.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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LIB

Onésiphore Ernest Talbot

Liberal

Mr. O. E. TALBOT (Bellechasse).

Mr. Sneaker, at this late hour of the night I do not intend to impose upon the House a very long speech, because it is with a very strong sense of shame and with a feeling of reluctance that I now rise in answer to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Bergeron) who has just taken his seat. After what has taken place in the province of Quebec since [DOT] 1896 and when we know what the political record of that hon. gentleman is and when this hon. gentleman has the audacity to stand up in this House as the defender of the episcopate and the clergy of Quebec, I say that I rise to answer him now with a great sense of shame and reluctance. Every one in this House knows and sees through the hon. gentleman's motive at this moment-he wants to apologize to his leader because he is going to vote against his amendment ; and it is a shameful apology that he has given to the House during the last hour. The hon. gentleman thinks

he can swallow himself and cover his tracks from the public eye. The hon. gentleman now stands up as the defender of thd episcopate of the province of Quebec ; but what did we see this afternoon ? We saw him applauding the abuse that fell fromi the lips of the hon. member for South York (Mr. W. F. Maclean). Thank God, Mr. Speaker, the clergy and the episcopate of the province of Quebec have not fallen so low as to require the defence of the hon. gentleman. The clergy of Quebec stand to-day, as they have always stood, highly respected and loved by every French Canadian and even by every Protestant of the province of Quebec and other provinces. What was the use of the hon. gentleman going so far back into ancient history as to talk about the elections of 1896 ? Isi that the question before the House to-day? He wanted to know what was the reason the Papal ablegate was sent to Canada ? No man knows the reason better than the hon. gentleman. He spoke of a certain document to which the name of the hon. Minister of Justice was attached. He knows where that document was prepared. Hd knows that it was prepared in the city of Quebec by two leading Tories, Mr. ChapaiS and Mr. L. P. Pelletier, who imposed that document on the episcopate. I remember very well, in the election of 1896, when the hon. leader of this House was in the parish1 of St. Raphael in my county, when Mr.1 Landry, Mr. Pelletier and Mr. Chapais came with that document before a couple' of thousand of my electors, and asked1 the right hon. gentleman to sign it. What was his answer ? He said : Go with that document to your leaders and get their1 signatures to it, and come to me afterwards, and I will then tell you what I will do. What was done to get some gentlemen to sign1 that document ? X remember when Dr. Yaillancourt was fighting the battles of the Liberal party in the county of Dorchester adjoining mine, Mr. Pelletier, the great friend of the hon. member for Beauharnois (Mr. Bergeron), went to Dr. Vallaincourt and said to him, ' if you sign this document, we will allow you to be elected by acclamation.' Dr. Vallaincourt signed it, and the next day or the day after he had an opponent. What was the use of Liberals signing a document ? Did we make any-, thing as a party by doing so ? Was not the clergy against us from beginning to end in 1896 ? Did we gain any votes in the province of Quebec by signing that document ? On the contrary. What was the reason the people of Quebec as well as the people of every other province rose in their might on that occasion and carried the Liberals into power ? It was because homes were deserted and windows and doors barred up, and where there had been happiness before there was nothing but wilderness and desolation. It was because Mr. 0. E. TALBOT.

of the strong feeling that the people had that a change had to come. There was distress for the farmers everywhere, and the people could see no prospect under Conservative rule except what had happened for eighteen or twenty years before-our people leaving Canada and going to the other side of the line for the bread which they were unable to earn on their own soil. That was the principal reason. My hon. friend from Beauharnois wants to involve the clergy of the province of Quebec again in political conflicts when we are leaving them alone. When he says there is no analogy between the fact that Archbishop Tache was brought from Rome to Canada and the fact that of the Papal ablegate being brought from Rome to Canada, we all know that there is an analogy in one respect. Archbishop Tache, before he died, left a letter, which is a portion of his will, in which he said that he had come to Canada at the request of the leader of the Conservative party ; and he said : ' Promises were made to me, and the cause of my premature death at this moment is that those promises have never been fulfilled, and I have been deceived by the leaders of the Conservative party.' That is where the difference is, and that is where there is no analogy between the two cases. The Pope was not deceived at the time we remonstrated against the straight, direct intervention of the clergy in political contests in the province of Quebec. Though we were Liberals, we were just as good Catholics as my hon. friend, and why were we damned from some pulpits because we voted as Liberals ? Why was it that in some of the pulpits some men went so far as to say : ' Hell is red, and heaven is

blue ; vote for the blue, and you are all right, but if you vote for the rouge, you are damned, and damned for ever.' Was it not time that the people of this country should have some protection from this kind of thing, so that we might vote as free men for the party in whom we had confidence. I am sorry to have to refer to these matters, and I would not have done so if the hon. member for Beauharnois had not dragged them on to the floor of this House. The hon. gentleman says he has been here for twenty-four years ; but he forgot what happened between the twentieth and the twenty-fourth years.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BERGERON.

It would have been twenty-eight years then.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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LIB

Onésiphore Ernest Talbot

Liberal

Mr. TALBOT.

He had time to reflect. One of the strong arguments that elected him in the last election in the county of Beauharnois was that his opponent was a Protestant and an Englishman. I do not say that the hon. gentleman used that argument, but his heelers used it. We saw it and read it in the papers at the time.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BERGERON.

If my hon. friend, will allow me, lie was not there, but I was there all the time. He can ask his own friends in the county of Beauharnois. Never a word of that sort was said during the whole election.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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LIB

Onésiphore Ernest Talbot

Liberal

Mr. TALBOT.

The whole campaign in the town of Valleyfield was carried out on! that very point.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

Jean-Baptiste Morin

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MORIN.

If the hon. member will allow me, I would like to correct a state-, ment he made. He said that there \tfas an>

agreement made between Mr. Landry, Mr.. Chapais and Mr. Pelletier, and that even; they would not live up to the agreement. To be sure, the agreement was made, but Mr. Pelletier, Mr. Ohapais and Mr. Landry, had nothing to do with it after it wasi signed. The people of Dorchester were very angry at that, and they said : It is

not Pelletier, it is not Landry, it is not Ohapais, who will choose the candidate for Dorchester-we will choose him ourselves ; and I was chosen. i

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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LIB

Onésiphore Ernest Talbot

Liberal

Mr. TALBOT.

When the document to which I refer was signed and was published and sent abroad to every one of us, my hon. friend from Dorchester was not born' politically; so he knows nothing about it: He came at the last minute, like mustard) after dinner. i

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

Jean-Baptiste Morin

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MORIN.

I was not supposed to know what took place before I came into Canada.!

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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April 6, 1905