April 6, 1905

LIB

Jacques Bureau

Liberal

Mr. BUREAU.

What did you make the assertion for ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

I have heard assertions made in this House

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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LIB
CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

By gentlemen on both sides of the House as to which, as soon as they were informed they were not true, they immediately accepted the denial. However, it is undeniable that Mr. Russell received money from this government, but it may have been for other services, and as the Minister of Justice says it was not for this service, I unreservedly accept that statement. It matters little on the point at issue.

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Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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LIB

Sydney Arthur Fisher (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. FISHER.

Taking these letters as being genuine, and there is no doubt about it, I think we have found thus far in our analysis that the present Papal ablegate was not brought here and is not here to-day on account of spiritual difficulties that have arisen iu the Catholic church of Canada.

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Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BERGERON.

Nor asked for by the bishops or clergy of Canada.

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Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

This also is suggested to me : that it is not on record and cannot be substantiated, that such a personage was asked for by the bishops and the clergy of the Roman Catholic church in this Dominion of Canada. If that is wrong, it is quite in order for those who know all about it to deny that assumption; but as it is not denied, it goes to strengthen the analysis l am making, and the conclus.ion that ' par consequence ' the only reason for the ablegate being asked to come, and being here to-day, is in order to help the Reform government out of difficulties into which they had involved themselves, and to help them out of that confusion and trouble by the intervention of a higher dignitary of the church. This House and this country wall know in a moment whether that inference is a violent one or a fair one. Why, in the whole tenor of those letters, the right hon. gentleman's and the accredited agent's, there is no assumption that he has come here tor spiritual or church purposes. It is all put on the basis of political or state reasons. What were the difficulties he was to settle ? If they had put it honestly in black and white, they would have said: the difficulties amongst Reformers and between Reformers and Conservatives, and we want a high dignity of the church to come here and help us to smooth out those political difficulties. .

But there is another very singular thing which Mr. Russell put into that statement of his to His Eminence, that is, that his senders, including the right hon. gentleman, who leads the government, writing in 1897. after the right hon. gentleman had declared that he had settled satisfactorily the Manitoba school question, had instructed Mr. Russell to remind His Holiness through His Eminence that they did not pretend to believe that ' the concessions were perfect, but they begged His Holiness to take them as the beginning of justire.' Now, Sir, is that straightforward conduct ? The right hon. gentieman, I said, is paying for his tortuous policy. So he is. In 1896 he saw a bridge by which he could get into power; he was anxious to cross the bridge; he threw his principles, the constitutional principles on which be had prided himself so much, to the winds; he also threw to the winds his solicitude for the Catholic minority in Manitoba; and after he had crossed the bridge by a promise to more than one-half of this Dominion that he was the champion of provincial rights, and by a

promise to the forty-one per cent which has been referred to in this House that he would1 give them something more and better than the Tapper government could give by the Remedial Bill, and had attained power by these means, he negotiated privately or publicly with the Manitoba government, and then announced to the country that he had settled the question. As an honourable statesman, he ought to have allowed it to remain settled. The Manitoba government came to him and said : this is our utmost concession ; and if he, as the Prime Minister of this country, took it as their utmost concession, why should he send an agent to Rome to say to His Holiness : I do not offer this concession as a perfect settlement ; it is only the beginning of justice ; send out your highest dignitary to reside permanently in Ottawa, so that, by insistence, by methods proper in themselves from our standpoint, he can bring to bear a tireless, resistless pressure, in times of party stress, in time of provincial trouble, when a government has a small support, may be, to tide them over, or when they are exceedingly anxious to get their rights in point of territory, he shall be in a position to use the influence which he knows so well how to use, and backed up by us at the proper time this beginning of justice may blossom out into the perfect fulfilment of separate schools for the province of Manitoba. That is why Monseigneur Sbarretti is here to-day. If it had not been for that reason and that policy of conduct, he would not be here to-day. What futile reasoning for the right hon.' gentleman, after thirty years of political battle, to get up and make this kind of defence before the country, and think it will go flown with the people: ' Monseigneur Sbarretti did what he was brought here to do; did what I asked him to be sent here for; did what I sent an agent to Rome to get him appointed to do; he did it, but he had no authority from me to deliver the goods.' Does the right hon. gentleman see the two horns of his dilemma ? You brought him here; you have kept him here for those five or eight years ; you brought him for those purposes; you have kept him for those purposes; and when he comes to the final, crucial point, and uses his influence, you disown him. If that is not cowardice, then let it go by its own imputation.

But my right hon, friend does worse than that. He gets up before this House and this country- and says : ' If Monseigneur Sbarretti made that promise of an extension of the boundaries of Manitoba as a political consideration to the province of Manitoba for those two proposed amendments, he did It without any authority or any well-grounded hope that we would supplement his promise.' Come now, I will put a question to my right hon. friend : Suppose that Monseigneur Sbarretti had obtained those two amendments made in the Manitoba law, 1261

and then had come to you and told you what he had done, and had read the whole of that correspondence, giving the raison d'etre of his being here, would you have refused to implement it ? There is a question for my right hon. friend. I will put another, which is more searching still ; When you say that Monseigneur Sbarretti held out a political consideration to the envoys from Manitoba, and that he had no right to do it, what estimate do you place on Monseigneur Sbarretti yourself? 1 refuse to believe that a high dignitary of the church, such as Monseigneur Sbarretti is, a man of his training and his parts, would by a trick endeavour to get two amendments for his co-religionists in the Manitoba school law, unless he knew that if they were granted, the other thing would be.' Along what by-ways and crooked paths the right hon. gentleman is forcing himself now, as a result of his misdeeds, to tread with sorrow and humiliation.

Now, Sir, I have no more to say on this question at the present time, except to reiterate again that my right hon. friend may take this home and keep it. The people of Canada demand that there shall be no possible alliance between church and state in this country. A bishop of the Methodist church has no more right to be consulted than a layman of the Methodist church in reference to political matters In this country. And so with reference to every other representative of every other church. But can you compare a bishop of the Methodist church or a bishop of the Anglican church with Monseigneur Sbarretti ? Who does not know that, with my right hon. friend in power, when Monseigneur Sbarretti, representing forty-one per cent of the people of this country, makes a plea, he holds out a hope, through his authority of a fulfilment that can be given by no other church or collection of churches in this country. Now, I can see that some one will rise on the other side and declare that I have made an incendiary speech. Why, the right hon. gentleman himself, seeing that he had no argument, had to have recourse to that kind of declamation, and it was very significant of the weakness of his case. For Monseigneur Sbarretti himself I have every respect.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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?

Some hon. MEMBERS

Oh, oh.

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Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

Quite a number of skeptics on that side of the House. But I show my respect for Monseigneur Sbarretti by clearing him of the imputations which the position of my right hon. friend fastens upon him. So far as the Papal ablegate's position in this country is concerned, so far as his position as a spiritual envoy from the Church of Rome is concerned, he is welcome to this country may be stay here and grow up with this country and help to make it great. So far as his mission is confined to spiritual purposes In his own church,

to the reconcilement of differences of doctrine, or of polity, or of church government, or anything in that broad domain, no one will cavil with his existence here, and no one but will wish him a long and happy stay. But when he undertakes, presuming on the raison d'etre of his position in this country, to set up a claim that he can interfere in the politics of Canada and use inducements by his interference, then 1 say that no protest can be too strong against that, and I believe it will be supported by the voice of Canada.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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?

Mr. L. G.@

McCarthy (North Simcoe). One thought occurred to me when the hon. member for North Toronto (Mr. Foster) was addressing this House : How long is he prepared to stand by the principles he has enunciated this afternoon ? Coming frahn the province of Ontario, and as a constituent of the hon. member for North Toronto,

I have a right to ask him this : Are these

clothes which he puts on this afternoon to be discarded as were the clothes he wore prior to 1890 should he be again defeated ? If he was speaking sincerely this afternoon.

I would welcome his declaration and would be pleased with it. But I have heard him stand on platforms in the province of Ontario and denounce the late Dalton McCarthy for the views which he entertained, I have heard him say that no such sectarian cry as Mr. McCarthy dared to raise would ever have any effect in this country ; 1 have heard him say, when Mr. McCarthy was speaking on behalf of Manitoba in another school case, that he must not forget minorities ; I have heard him say that to sit in a Conservative administration he would bury those principles, and he did bury them from 1882 to 1896. Therefore, I ask the hon. gentleman now whether he has cast off for ever the yoke of the hierarchy under which he lived from 1882 to 1896 ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

Yes, I have sent the yoke over to my hon. friend.

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Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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?

Mr. L. G.@

McCarthy. My hon. friend will find out about the yoke.

O Mr. FOSTER. I see he wears it very gracefully.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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?

Mr. L. G.@

McCarthy. My hon. friend will find out that the nigh ox is hitched on the off side. He need not talk about the yoke, when one of his colleagues who now sits beside him, hounded Dalton McCarthy from one end of Ontario to the other, saying that he was not worthy to be called a Protestant champion, because, forsooth, he had a Catholic stepdaughter who lived in his house.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

George Eulas Foster

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. FOSTER.

May X ask my hon. friend a question ? Does he refer to me when he states that I made any assertion of that kind ?

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Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON
IND

Leighton Goldie McCarthy

Independent

Mr. L. G. MCCARTHY.

No, the hon. gentleman was not listening, or he would have heard what I said. I said his colleague who sat beside him, the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Taylor), and I have his words here. The hon. member for Lanark (Mr. Haggart) also has spoke in derogatory terms of Mr. Dalton McCarthy. I say that the bon. gentleman (Mr. Foster) who has just made this appeal this afternoon, did live under the yoke of the hierarchy of Quebec from 1S82 to 1896.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

John Graham Haggart

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. HAGGART.

Did I hear the hon. gentleman aright when I understood him to say that I had made any allusion to a stepdaughter ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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?

Mr. L. G.@

McCarthy. No, no. The hou. gentleman from Lanark, speaking at Brockville, used this language :

Mr. Haggart dealt at great length with the school question, and then launched out into a personal attack on Mr. Dalton McCarthy whom he called ' that little gentleman.' Mr. McCarthy was, the minister said, putting on airs and talking about different members of the government, particularly about ' my brilliant friends,' the Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Ives and Mr. Wood. None were better able to take the measure of a jack-daw posing in borrowed plumage than the electors of the country. A man fighting and quarrelling in small courts of law got a narrow and contracted intellect which unfitted him as a statesman or a representative of the people. He might be able to torture a witness in the box. What did he know beside, law ? Did he ever make a speech in the House of Commons that was listened to ? He posed on the narrow grounds of bigotry and lived upon resentments.

Those are the words of the hon. member for Lanark. Now why do I say that the hon. gentleman from North Toronto lived under the yoke of the hierarchy of Quebec from 18S2 to 1896 ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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CON

Joseph Gédéon Horace Bergeron

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BERGERON.

What do you call the hierarchy of Quebec, please ?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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IND

Leighton Goldie McCarthy

Independent

Mr. L. G. MCCARTHY.

I am not speaking disrespectfully of them, I am speaking as I would of the Synod of my own church, or the general assembly of the Presbyterian church. The hon. member must know what the hierarchy of his own church is. The hon. member for Labelle (Mr. Bourassa) spoke of it the other day. Now I ask the hon. gentleman from North Toronto, who has just made a speech, if he was sincere ? If I thought he was sincere I would not be speaking as I am now.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   EXTENSION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF MANITOBA.
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April 6, 1905