Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

Before the Orders of the Day are called, I would like to men-Mr. FITZPATRICK.

tion to the Prime Minister that when he was good enough to hand to me a written statement of the delimitations of the proposed provincial constituencies in the province of Alberta, he accompanied it with a statement of the vote cast in each of these constituencies at the general elections on the 3rd of November last. No such statement having accompanied the delimitations which were handed to me with respect to the province of Saskatchewan, I would be very glad to have such a statement for that province, as it would facilitate some work which is being done in that regard.

I am getting this attended to, and I hope we shall have these figures perhaps on Monday, and all information possible.

Mr. S. BARKER.

Sir WILFRID LAURIEB.

I did not notice in the letter the hon. gentleman has just read that the name of that official is given. I suppose he does not know the name.

Mr. FOSTER.

Will the tenders for installation cover the digging of the trench?

Mr. HYMAN.

I think not. My recollection is that the digging is separate.

Mr. FOSTER.

The minister (Mr. Hyman) does not wish to say yet whether tenders will be called for the trenchdigging or not.

Mr. HYMAN.

Mr. Galt, an engineer in Toronto, who is an expert in these matters, and -who has been practically acting for the department, has been asked for a report on the method by which this work should be done.

Mr. BARKER.

I presume it was not known. He must have been the customs officer, because he took the two men to the custom-house there. I will send the letter over to the right hon. gentleman.

Mr. LENNOX.

when we come to this amendment proposed by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher) we find that it is proposed to amend the Act by adding a section. And in that amendment we get the first intimation that there is to be a certificate at all. The new section, ]STo. 14, as proposed reads :

At the request of any association incorporated under this Act, authorized at the annual meeting or at a meeting called for that purpose, the Minister of Agriculture may, through an officer of his department, thereunto authorized by him, approve, under the hand of that officer and the seal of his department, or such other seal as is adopted for that purpose, the certificates of registration issued by such association.

Now, I call attention to the fact that there is no mention of a certificate in the original Act, and that even after the amendment is made it is only by inference that we have authority for the issue of a certificate at all. It seems to me we should have distinct provisions for the issue of a certificate by the association, as to the fees to be charged for this certificate, and also as to the fees to be charged for registration. And I think we might very well have a provision-it seems to me as important as in some similar cases in which it has been made-that the certificate shall be prima facie evidence in courts of record. At least, some provision should be made as to the effect in courts of law of this certificate upon the manner of giving evidence as to pedigreeft stock. In additions to that, while I am speaking of this matter and so that the minister may be able to deal with it concisely, I would point out that section 13, which provides for a penalty is one sided. It provides that any person who signs a false pedigree intended for registration shall be liable to a penalty. I *submit that, it is equally important that there should be a penalty for the issue of a false certificate by an association. For upon the bona fides and correctness of this certificate the usefulness of it must depend. Of course, there is no provision for a certificate in the original Act, and therefore it is not surprising that there is no penalty provided. These are a few matters that occun-ed to me in reference to this Bill.

I have noticed carefully what the minister says as to the desirability of having these matters taken care of at Ottawa. My only regret is that we cannot in some way have the whole matter controlled at Ottawa instead of having it controlled by associations such as was spoken of by the minister when he last addressed the House on this subject. That probably for the reasons given by the minister is hot to be immediately obtained.

Mr. t'ISHEK. Taking up the last point nrst i would say that the breeders themselves are very jealous indeed of the control ot their own records and to a great extent I sympathize with them in that

Mr. LENNOX.

feeling, and I therefore have made no effort at all to take away from the breeders the control and management of their records ; I specifically insisted that it should be tho-loughly understood between my department and the associations that they should retain the control of their records. In regard to the other amendments to the Act of 1900 which my hon. friend suggests, I think in regard to the first one as to the issuing of certificates that that is covered by section 9 of clause 5, the registration of pedigrees of pure bred live stock. I grant that there is nothing specific about the issuing of certificates, but tbe issuing of certificates is tbe only proof to the owner of the animal that the animal is registered and by the laws and rules of the associations, Which provide for the registration Of live stock, a certificate is to be issued. It might have been better, I think perhaps it would have been better, to have added a few words to the end of that section such as ' and for the issuing of certificates therefor ' but I know that in the working of the former local 'Acts under which live stock registration has been kept the registration was always held to cover the issuing of the certificate and therefore it was in the original draft of this Act subclause A was held to cover the 'point raised by my hon. friend regarding the issuing of certificates, although this latter matter is not specifically mentioned. In regard to ti;e other suggestion which my hon. frielid made with reference to section 13 of the Act that there is no penalty for tile presentation or .the issuing of a false certificate I think it would be rather difficult to punish an association. The certificate if it were not issued by the recognized and properly organized association would on the face of it bear the proof of its being false. If it was issued by the association then the association is not doing its work properly and the matter would have to come up at an annual meeting of that association and dealt with by the members of that association. Bu.t I think it would be rather difficult to provide a penalty against the association for the issuing of a false certificate. I hardly think that would be feasible and workable ; at any rate in the drawing of the Act that question was not raised, and I may say that this Act was drawn in 1900 in full consultation with the men who are concerned in the keeping of these records. It was done very largely on the model of the provincial Acts under which these record associations had been working before and I think it covers the points which are covered by those Acts.

It has now been in operation for four years and there is no difficulty such as my' hon. friend has suggested, and so I think we may fairly contend that the Act is workable. If we find, now that the records are to be transferred to Ottawa and to be worked more closely under this Act, that difficulties arise then after an experience of

a year in the working of the Act we can next session provide such amendments as may then be found to be necessnrv T shall be only too glad to do so and i0 let lioii. triend know everythin0* that comes up of that nature so that we may

possible8 " making the Act as P^ect as

Mr. HERRON.