Mr. R. L. BORDEN.

If a half dozen men are sent to sea in that condition do you suppose you will ever hear anything about it again ?

Mr. GALLIHER.

I do not think the fear that a half dozen men may be sent off to sea in this condition should be held up as a bugbear to interfere with the trade of British Mr. GALLIHER.

Columbia ports. You cannot constitute yourself the guardian of every man in every walk of life ; we all have to take chances ; the sailors' is a roving life and it does not matter much to manv of them what port they sail for. I do not think we live in an age when crimping can be carried on as it formerly was in England.

Mr. FOSTER.

And here.

Mr. GALLIHER.

And here perhaps. The ports of Vancouver and Victoria are not very large and it is easily possible to have such supervision over these boarding-house keepers who may be appointed deputy shipping masters, as will keep them well within the mark. I do not believe any bad result will follow, and in the meantime British Columbia ports will get the trade they are entitled to.

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

I appreciate the fact that a serious grievance exists in British Columbia at present. It is quite easy for a member of this House to play the part of critic on any legislation, but if the minister will allow the matter to remain in abeyance for a day or two I will undertake to see if I can draft some clause that will meet the object we all have in view.

Mr. PREFONTAINE.

Very well. I was about to suggest that we could provide against persons who sell liquors from_ being appointed as shipping masters, but if you exclude boarding-house keepers you are in no better position than you are now. I tried to solve the difficulty on the request of the boards of trade of the Pacific coast, but I understand the objections very well. I move the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

Progress reported.

Mr. FOSTER.

Before section one is read by* the Chairman would the minister explain just what is the condition of things now and what are the reasons that led to this very-decided change ? How would things be bettered by placing it under the minister and in that way bringing it immediately under the party patronage system ; none too good, none too' conductive to discipline and morale in the force. Prima facie it would seem to be a step backward, to take it from a lion-partisan board, as I think this is. and put it under the direct control of a party minister. I suppose the minister knows, as any one who has had to do with these things knows, that the harbour and river police business in Quebec has not been a bed of roses for any one who has attempted to administer it. and even with the buffer of the commission between the minister and the force it has been

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a source of perennial trouble. Does the minister think he is going to make it better if he takes it away from the commission and puts it where every follower of his and where every adherent of his throughout the district will'feel that they have a right to interfere in the appointments and everything of that kind. But worse than that, it brings immediately to every member of the pilot force the idea that he has to get political pull and political influence in some way if he wishes to better his individual condition or the condition of the force as a whole. It seems to me that in going from the commission to the minister and opening up all the influences, it is not a step in the right direction. Of course the minister will agree with me that this is a very important branch of the service.

Mr. PREFONTAINE.

My hon. friend (Mr. Foster) was not in the House two sessions ago when this matter was discussed. For years past the shipping federation lias unanimously agitated for a revision of the laws governing the pilots. In the year 1887 a strike took place amongst the Montreal district pilots who were then under the control of the harbour commissioners, and a commission was appointed to inquire into the whole question. For twenty years past the shipping interests have agitated in favour of putting the pilots under the administration of the Marine Department, and it is only the year before last that the objections of the pilots themselves and of the Montreal Harbour Board were removed, and that a Bill was passed putting the licensed pilots between Quebec and Montreal under the control of the department.

loss of a vessel and its cargo to the value of $250,000. Then the shipping people asked us to take away the Saguenay river at least from the pilotage authorities of Quebec and put it under the control of tlie Department of Marine and Fisheries, and last year I introduced a Bill- for that purpose. The department succeeded in getting tlie corporation of the pilots of Quebec to select four or five of tbeir number wbo knew the Saguenay river very well, and place them under the control of the department. The result was that last year there was scarcely any accident, and matters went on better than they had done before. This year the corporation of the pilots of Quebec, in view of the way matters had gone on between Montreal and Quebec, came to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and asked that they should be put under the control of bis department. They felt that that would be more satisfactory to them and that the regulations would be better attended to ; and therefore, with the consent of the Harbour Commissioners of Quebec, I bring forward this Bill with the view of having the whole of the St. Lawrence pilotage under tlie control-of the Department of Marine and Fisheries. The pilots' organization will of course keep its entity as it is, while the Department of Marine and Fisheries will be the pilotage authority as regards examinations and regulations for the admission of pilots, and all that is necessary to guarantee to the shipping interest the elimination as much as possible of all dangers from incompetency.

Mr. FOSTER.

Are these regulations now taken in hand by the Department of Marine and Fisheries ?

Mr. FOSTER.

That was to put the Montreal pilotage division under the Department of Marine and Fisheries ?

Mr. PREFONTAINE.

Yes. There were strong representations to the government, and we were taken to task for not having the courage, as it was alleged at the time, to take the whole pilotage under the control of the department. I explained then to the House that there were two sides_ to the question, that I knew that the shipping interests were unanimously in favour of that being done, or that there would be somebody responsible for fiie conduct and qualification of these men. I said that we would try with the pilots of Montreal, who were ready to work band in hand with the department and to submit themselves to the regulations that might be made by tlie department. Since this clause has been in force, now nearly two seasons, not only the shipping federation, which represents the ship-owners, but the pilots themselves, are perfectly satisfied. But there has been some agitation as regards other places. Last year a very serious accident happened on the Saguenay river through the incompetence of one of the pilots, resulting in the

Mr. PREFONTAINE.

Yes. The pilots ave their own corporation and regulations, >ut the pilotage authority will rest with the dinister of Marine and Fisheries instead of vith tlie harbour commissioners. The har-iour commissions are composed of a large lumber of men-in Montreal 11 and in Quebec 9 or 10. The shipping people believe ;heir interests will be bettev served in this wav. The masters, mates, engineers and -aptains are all under the control of the Department of Marine and Fisheries, and are obliged to pass their examinations and get their certificates from the department; and the shipping people ask, why should not the pilots be in the same position . They say that the pilots should be put under such control that the shipping people would know where to place the blame if a pilot committed an offence or an error or proved incompetent. He could be dealt with by somebody who would be responsible to the House.

What privileges do the pilots retain to themselves as a corporation ? Do they regulate their own apprenticeships or the manner in which new pilots are to be

brought in, or does that go to the department ?

Mr. PREFONTAINE.

That goes to the department. When we took the authority over the pilots between Montreal and Quebec, the shipping federation met with the president of the pilots, and they agreed upon certain regulations for the best interests of themselves and the public in general, so that this body should inspire confidence. The result has been most satisfactory in the district of Montreal, and I do not see why it should not be equally so in the district of Quebec.

As soon as this Bill is passed, the Pilotage Board will no longer exist ?

Mr. PREFONTAINE.

The Harbour Commission of Montreal is still in existence, but it has no jurisdiction over the pilotage ; and the same will be the case with the Harbour Commission of Quebec.

Mr. FITZPATRICK.

There is a provision in the Harbour Commissioners' Act, giving the Harbour Commission authority over pilotage, and that provision will no longer have any effect.

Mr. FOSTER.

I am glad to hear from the minister that things have improved in the Montreal district. If he can effect an improvement at the other end, and gain the confidence of the shipping men, which has not been very full, I am afraid during the last few years, it will be a good thing. Meantime, I might say what I commenced to say. My fear in the matter was that the element of patronage and political interference would be allowed to creep iuto it If that can be kept out of it, I believe the change might be beneficial.