Mr. JOHNSTON.

I will hunt up the facts.

Mr. A. MARTIN.

Your facts are often very doubtful. The letter proceeds :

Are we an inferior race or are wo not a law-abiding people? What is the cause oi such treatment? During the days of wooden ships we had as fine a fleet and as brave and noble a class of seamen as ever ploughed a sea. Why should all this wealth have passed away? Is it merely because wooden ships are a thiev of the past ? Nay, hut on account ot our shipping laws/

Again are not our home vessels a benefit to Canadians generallv? As soon as they all disappear, the conseouences will be experienced. Notice the towns situated away from the coast nav a higher rate of freight than freight sent oast that inland town to one on the coast. What is the cause ? Because places situated on the coast have their own vessels and water competition. Why should we be deprived of our birthright for the benefit of a lew moneyed people not resident in Canada ? We Canadian seamen hare no desire to leave our Canadian homes, although we would be 6 ee ainc 7<'.lllcl io!d Property in the . ^ l,fettates ,ishlpis- B.ut we want is

our nvhts, and not until then will we be a contented and happy people.

Mr. 'MARTIN (Queens, P.E.I.)

That must have been very cheering to the hon. member for Cape Breton, who champions this injustice. I think it is very cruel treatment that a sailing vessel cannot get a barrel of coal to keep the fire going in the forecastle. Letter goes on to say: [DOT]

While we have been treated in this manner, a Norwegian steamer, .manned bv Norwegians, and flyinf' the Norwegian flag, hauled into the dock, and was loaded with over 3,000 tons of coal, and left Tuesday evening, and another Norwegian steamer hauled into the dock the following day and is being loaded.

A good many of us are in the coal carrying trade, and- some of us buy cargoes and have regular customers waiting for coal, and as we cannot afford to wait until the St. Lawrence freezes up, we are compelled to leave the port of Hastings to-day.

We trust that the members of the Dominion and local parliaments as well as the Halifax and other boards of trade and the newspapers, will come to our assistance.

On receiving such shabby treatment from the superintendent of the Inverness Railway and Coal Company, we wired to C. W. Spencer. general manager, Montreal, on the 19th instant.

Have booked here ten days for coal, wire it in ten load schooners or not. Have been promised coal Monday.

(Sgd.) L. GERRIOR, and thirteen other schooner masters.

Not receiving any reply to this, we wired again to C. W. Spencer at Montreal, on the 20th instant, as follows:

Superintendent McGillivray advises no coal to schooners until St. Lawrence closes. Please answer yesterday's telegram. Must we apply Toronto office.

(Sgd.) L. GERRIOR, and thirteen other schooner masters.

The above is signed by the following named captains: S. Boutillier, Jef. For-geron, J. White, C. Chasson, A. Biott, 0. S. Sangster, E. Sampson, B. Davis, L. Hubley, L. Rafuse, H. Deong, Mr. Boudrot, Mr. Landry, P. McCarthy. I think that letter from the owners and captains of vessels shows that they have suffered great hardship in the treatment they have received, and I think the government owes it to these people to provide some redress. It is not enough to say that the matter is under consideration. The minister asked my colleague what he was going to do about it. Now I have taken some pains to study this question, and I have consulted the Shipping Act in the revised statutes. I think that if the Minister of Marine and Fisheries will not give the matter his attention, the Minister of Justice will acknowledge on reading this Shipping Act that there is a remedy, and that the remedy is in the hands of the government, whether they choose to exercise it or not. I have taken pains to prepare a summary of the provisions of the several sections of chapter 113 of the revised statutes known as the Shipping Act, w7hich I will read :

Section 857. Harbour master appointed by Governor in Council.

Section 853. Governor in Council by regulation defines powers and duties of harbour master.

Section. 854. Governor in Council may make regulations for government of any harbour (at ports of Quebec, Montreal, Three Rivers, Toronto, Halifax, Pictou and St. John, New Brunswick, apDlication must be made by local authorities to Governor in Council for rules and regulations.)

I presume from reading this section that the government has the power to make regulations. Of course the application must be made.

Section 871. Governor in Council may determine at what ports wardens are required.

Section 875. Defines duties of port warden.

Section 900.1 Port warden should perform all duties assigned to him by Governor in Council.

Section 909. Defines duties of masters and port wardens.

There is nothing in the Shipping Act to regulate the rotation of loading or discharging of cargoes; but that comes under the rules and regulations made by the Governor in Council for the guidance of the port warden or harbour master, as the case may be, in each port. Consequently, in the case in point, the port warden is at fault if he has received regulations. He either violated the rules and regulations, in which case

he is answerable to the Minister of Marine, or else the government failed to set down rules and regulations for his guidance. Now, I leave the minister on either horn of the dilemma. If he has not set down the rules, the department is to blame; if he has, the port warden or the harbour master has failed to carry out these regulations. This is a very important question, inasmuch as it has occasioned great loss to many people. The season is now far advanced, and if there is next season a recurrence of these tyrannical proceedings in those ports, there will be trouble. I think it devolves upon the government to solve the difficulty in order to prevent threatened trouble.

Mr. WM. ROCHE (Halifax).

This trouble of the detention of vessels at piers at the various mines is an old grievance in the coal trade. I remember some years ago when there were a good many sailing vessels in the business, that frequently at the larger coal piers and shipping points there was a detention to some sailing vessels sometimes of five or six weeks, occasioned by other sailing vessels and larger ships getting a preference in obtaining cargoes of coal for larger ports of consumption. At a certain time of the year large sailing ships took cargoes for the St. Lawrence, and as the period of navigation closed at a certain time, it was necessary to give them despatcli in order that they might reach their destination on the St. Lawrence in time. Undoubtedly a grievance existed. In my opinion a remedy might be found in two ways.

Mr. A. MARTIN.

What does the bon. gentleman make of this statement I have read?

Mr. WM. ROCHE.

I will come to that in a moment. I am now speaking of the conditions which existed twenty or thirty years or more ago. There was also more or less detention at coal piers owing to the circumstances I have mentioned. The great grievance which existed then was that when steamers began to ply in the coal trade and came to a pier, the master of the pier, or dock master, prevented the sailing vessels which had taken part of a cargo from taking the rest of it. Frequently when a vessel was partially loaded, steamers came in and the vessel had to haul away from under the coal chute without obtaining her cargo. Now if a certain number of chutes at these larger piers were devoted to serving small vessels, a great part of the grievance would be removed.

Another regulation might be made that no steamer ought to return and take on a second cargo until the vessels which were present at the pier before she loaded are loaded. As has been observed by my hon. friend from Queens (Mr. A. A. McLean), it is a great vexation and annoyance to the masters of vessels lying at piers for them

to observe one of these steamers being filled with a cargo, perhaps ten times as much as these vessels hold, take her cargo up the St. Lawrence and come back again before these vessels have been loaded. The advent of the big cargo steamers has made a great change in the coal trade. The requirements of the St. Lawrence, no doubt, demanded vessels of a larger size. Formerly the largest cargo was probably 1,000 tons, but to-day, there are these Norwegian steamers that carry 6,000 tons. Some of the mines have so arranged that they shall have a steamer under the chutes all the time and that means that vessels that intervene can get no loads, because, when one steamer is loaded and moves away, another one takes her place ; this goes on in rotation and the result is that these smaller vessels are not. loaded. It is true that these vessels carrying large cargoes are under foreign flags, largely the Norwegian flag, but how this government is to intervene and prevent the owners of the mines from transporting their own products in their own way, I do not know. I do not know that the remedy is in the hands of the government. But, there is a question in regard to the supply of the St. Lawrence -the supply of Montreal and Quebec- and that is that these large centres require large quantities of coal and as a result a difficulty arises in connection with supplying the smaller ports in Nova Scotia. Before the period of navigation closes these large centres must obtain their coal and. notwithstanding that they have a large supply of tonnage, there are ports in the maritime provinces that receive no coal. Not only is there a grievance on the part of the owners of the small vessels but there is a grievance on the part of the smaller ports because the consumers of coal in these places do not receive the product that they require. They are practically the owners of the coal themselves as being resident in the province of Nova Scotia which is blessed by having a large supply and they naturally feel that they have a grievance because, as owners of the product under the ground, they are not in a position to receive the supply which they require and because they have to pay a larger price for that commodity. I do not intend to enter into the legal question or to discuss the point as to whether this government can provide a remedy for this grievance. The grievance undoubtedly does exist. It may partly remedy it to provide that no steamer shall receive her second cargo until the vessels that are at the piers at the time of her loading receive the quantity they require. Whether this government can enforce a regulation of that kind or whether it is the prerogative of the local government, I do not know. But, there is a very strong objection urged : Why should not the proprietor of the coal mine be able to sell and provide for the convey-Mr. W. ROCHE.

a nee of the product to the place of destination ? Certainly the demands of the sellers of the product are first to be provided for. In olden times, when there was too great an accumulation of vessels at the mines, the mine owners themselves stopped the delivery to vessels going foreign. Newfoundland sealers and vessels that made sea voyages came over to North Sydney and no other vessels could obtain cargo. The owners of the mines intervened and saw to it that the smaller vessels accumulated around the piers should be loaded before the Newfoundlanders came upon the scene. Something of that kind could be done by the voluntary action of the mine owners provided the government made representations to them that the wants of the vessels in the country and the wants of the small places consuming coal should first be satisfied.

Mr. ANGUS MCLENNAN (Inverness).

Port Hastings, that very important coaling station, happening to be in the county I have the honour to represent, I wish to say a few words in connection with the complaint mentioned in the letters and other papers referred to by the hon. member for Queens, Prince Edward Island (Mr. A. A. McLean), It seemed to me as if these gentlemen had exhausted the grievances of Prince Edward Island and, like Alexander, had gone abroad for other worlds to conquer. It would seem to me also that a certain gentleman has called perhaps, undue attention to any trouble in regard to the shipping of coal at Port Hastings. There is one particular point in connection with the agitation which has been set on foot that I would like to mention. A Mr. Alexander G. Bailey has been very much in evidence in the press for a number of months past and I may say, in order that the House may understand the matter, that there is something back of Mr. Bailey's agitation and It is this : Mr. Bailey was sales agent for the Inverness Coal Company, and, for some reason, the Inverness Coal Company dispensed with the services of that gentleman. From that day on every thing has gone wrong at Port Hastings with the shipping pier of the Inverness Coal Company. Nothing, in fact, in the eyes of Mr. Bailey, has been right since then. But, it must be conceded that there are occasions when there is a considerable congestion of shipping at the various shipping piers of the coal companies, and I may say, in passing, that the shipping and selling of coal have always been held, and rightly so, to be a private enterprise. What the government of the province or of this Dominion can have to do with a private enterprise of that character I fail to see. If there were any means by which the Dominion government or any of the provincial governments could do anything to rectify any grievance that might exist in this

.MAY 4, 1908

connection no person would be better pleased than myself, but, like all other lines of business I think that this mining business will adjust itself. There are occasions, particularly in the fall of the year, when coal is very much in demand, and when there is, consequently, great congestion at the shipping piers. It is something like the shipping of wheat in the west. All the lines of railway are pressed into the service and while they are not equal to the task of shipping the grain out of that part of the country just as speedily as the producers would like them to do, no person would say that the railways are not doing the best they can. So are the coal mining companies. There is one feature in connection with the selling and shipping of coal and that is that there are two markets-the local market and the distant, or foreign market. There was hitherto considerable competition among the Nova Scotia coal companies for the St. Lawrence market but fortunately for the coal trade and for the owners of sailing vessels the growth and extent of the local market which is supplied by the sailing vessels, is convincing the coal producers that it is fast becoming a very valuable market and that it requires recognition from them. Only the other day I was speaking with Mr. D. D. Mann, of the Inverness Coal Company, and he assured me that so profitable was the local market becoming that his company had made up their mind that it would be a case of first come first served as regards sailing vessels or steamrs at their shipping ports. The Mabou mine, another valuable mine in Inverness county, has vigorously started out to produce coal, and they advertise that as between the sailing vessel and the steamer it will also be a case of first come first served. There is another feature in connection with this congestion of shipping at Port Hastings and other Inverness coal ports which I might call the attention of the House to, and that is the very great superiority of the coal produced there.

Mr. E. M. MACDONALD (Pictou).

This question has been frequently discussed in the press of the maritime provinces and in the legislatures as well. The hon. gentleman who brought the matter to the attention of the House has not seen fit to suggest to the minister-that is providing this parliament has any power to deal with the question-any remedy. It has been said that in the United States certain customs exist at the coal loading ports, but as to that we have no evidence, and it does seem as if, before the subject was brought forward as it has been, the hon. gentlemen from Prince Edward Island should have been able to suggest some remedy for the grievance. For various reasons, last year was a peculiar year in the coal trade of Nova Scotia. Owing to the lateness of the opening of navigation on the St. Lawrence the coal companies could not begin to fill their

contracts until late in June, and as the trade with the St. Lawrence has been increasing greatly during the past ten years, and as there were very large orders last year, the time for the delivery of the coal was more limited than in previous years. Again, in the Springhill mines in Cumberland county, one of the largest coal producing mines in Nova Scotia outside of the island of Cape Breton, there was a strike, and in consequence there was a tremendous demand on the capacity of the mines in Pictou county, Inverness county, and Cape Breton county. While these gentlemen who have written in the press so vigorously had doubtless a grievance, yet it is only fair to remember the conditions under which the coal trade of the province was conducted last year. In conjunction with the causes I have mentioned, there is the further cause that the small consumers in the various provinces locally, did not attempt to get their supply of coal until late in the season, and having waited with their orders until the last minute there was more difficulty in supplying them. I do not think any one has the- right to assume that the coal companies deliberately intend to discriminate in this matter. Under ordinary conditions and if the opportunities for shipping were normal in each year, there is no doubt that the coal companies would do all in their power to supply anybody and everybody who might come along. We have had a great development in the coal trade of Nova Scotia in recent years, a developuent which did not take place during the time our friends opposite were in power although they claimed to be the friends of the coal industry ; a development which awaited the coining into power of the present government. Then coal areas which for many years remained untouched were brought into operation, and as a consequence new companies were pressing for business and making contracts to sell coal here and there so as to dispose of the immensely increased production. I might point out that the complaints which my hon. friends have given vent to to-day have no bearing against the coal companies in the county I have the honour to represent, or in the county of Cape Breton, but were confined to the county of Inverness. In proof of the fact that tiiere was some discrimination there a letter was produced from the manager of one of the mines to the effect that it was impossible for them to supply coal locally until the St. Lawrence was frozen over, which meant that this Inverness Coal and Railway Company had taken large contracts in Montreal which under the conditions of the shortened season of navigation it was encumbent on them to fill. Taking into account the abnormal season of last year and the deferring until the last minute of local coal orders, the natural result was that vessel owners might expect some difficulty in getting supplies. But they were not the only

people who experienced this difficulty because those who got supplies by rail throughout the province met with the same experience. If there was any evidence of a determined discrimination on the part of the coa! companies against the small dealers a remedy would have to be found in some way, but I do not think there is evidence of any such thing. As a matter of fact, I can tell my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island that I will undertake to be answerable for any coal companies in Pictou county, that they will supply all the schooners that can be sent over this summer.

Hon. R. LEMIEUX (Postmaster General).

My constituents in the Magdalen Islands are making the same complaints that have been voiced here this afternoon, and I would like to ask my hon. friend (Mr. E. M. Macdonald) if he will give a guarantee that the people of the Magdalen Islands will be sup-P'ied with coal, just as he has promised that the people of Prince Edward Island will get a supply.

Mr. E. M. MACDONALD.

I have the greatest pleasure in assuring the Postmaster General that the only mistake his constituents have made in the past has been that they have not come to the right place for coal, and that if they come to the county of Pictou they will get their coal without any delay or difficulty. Complaints have been made in regard to Norwegian vessels engaging in this trade. I am sure that my hon. friend who mentioned these vessels failed to apprehend that there is not the slightest connection between the usual supply of coal to schooners and the participation of the Norwegian vessels in the St. Lawrence trade. Unfortunately we have not in the mercantile marine of the maritime provinces or of Canada to-day, one-fourth the number of vessels registered under the British flag that are necessary to carry the quantity of coal which we send up the St. Lawrence from the province of Nova Scotia every year, and perforce we have to go abroad in order to get the necessary vessels. We would of course prefer to get those sailing under the British flag, but our people have to get them wherever they can get them ; and as we send up the St. Lawrence between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 tons of coal every year, and as this has to be moved within the space of three or four months, I would like to ask the hon. gentlemen who suggest too quick a method of removing from our Canadian waters the vessels sailing under a foreign flag which are engaged in this coal trade, to take into consideration the question where the vessels are going to come from to supply the deficiency, so as to make sure that that coal will be sent up the St. Lawrence every year ; because that trade is absolutely essential to the development of the coal mining industry of Nova Scotia. The Mr. MACDONALD.

difficulty to which my hon. friend referred is one which has no relation to any other province, and it must be worked out with the greatest possible care, realizing that, until we have in Canada a sufficient supply of vessels for the purpose, it will be imperilling the coal industry of Nova Scotia to take too drastic measures with regard to the vessels at present engaged in that trade. I only rose, as representing a coal producing county, to point out to the House and the country generally, that, so far as the county that I have the honour to represent is concerned, there has always been fair treatment accorded to schooners carrying coal, t will not express any opinion as to the right of this parliament to deal with this question. It is a grave and somewhat unique question. It is a matter of uncertainty whether this parliament can deal with the rights of lessees in the province of Nova Scotia in regard to the disposition of their products in the ordinary way, because, after all, that is the problem. It seems to me, however, that this discussion must elicit the fact that the difficulty which occurred last year is not one that is general or is likely to continue, but has been due to the peculiar conditions of last year, which I hope will not be found to arise in this or in any future year.

Mr. A. JOHNSTON (Cape Breton).

Mr. Speaker, this is an important question, particularly to the maritime provinces, where it is a more live question than it is in other parts of the country. But the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. E. M. Macdonald) has been a little too serious in complaining that neither of our hon. friends from Prince Edward Island suggested a remedy, because it was not a remedy which these hon. gentlemen wanted.

Mr. A. MARTIN.

If the hon. gentleman will allow me, I suggested a remedy. I do not think the hon. gentleman has a right to attribute motives to me in taking up this question. If his motives are not correct, it is not for him to say that mine are not correct.

Mr. JOHNSTON.

My hon. friend is quite astray ; he has not suggested any remedy at all. If my hon. friend had desired a remedy, he would have moved in an altogether different channel. There are certain people who could have remedied this matter ; there are people who as a matter of fact have remedied it as far as it can be remedied, but not as a result of any representation from Prince Edward Island.

Mr. A. MARTIN.

If you have a remedy, tell ns what it is.

Mr. JOHNSTON.

I certainly have a remedy, and I will tell it to my hon. friend; but I shall disappoint him-I shall spoil his little game. Now, I understand that re-

presentations were made to my hon. friend in regard to this matter some time ago. Am J not correct ?

Mr. A. MARTIN.

What representations do you refer to ?

Mr. JOHNSTON.

Were there no representations made to my hon. friend ?

Mr. A. MARTIN.

If you know what the representations were, tell it.

Mr. JOHNSTON.

I have an idea.

Mr. A. MARTIN.

An idea ? You have no idea in your head.

Mr. JOHNSTON.

It is getting a little too warm for my hon. friend ; but he must not complain if he is told the truth, occasionally