I am going to say what I think is true and we can compare the two. He says take a man in the vortex of life, thrown hither and thither, his muscles toughened mentally and otherwise and when you get such a man you must promote him quickly. Let us take these two paragons. Here is Mr. Wright. Howmuch of a vortex had he been in before he entered the department and became old and moss-covered? He entered the department as messenger in 1893, he was a third-class clerk in 1901, a second class clerk in 1905, a first-class clerk in 1907 and is still going upward. The fine theory does not fit in with this particular case. Mr. Wright was the nominee and favourite of a minister, the late Hon. Mr. Sutherland had him made a messenger and during his life carefully shoved him upwards.

In the case of Mr. Roberts, Mr. Calvert carefully shoves him upwards. Who is the good genius behind Mr. Marchand?

Mr. OLIVER.

I wish to have this question settled first. I did not suggest that there was no way of getting good service except by taking men from the outside. I said that, other things being equal, you were more likely to get capable and efficient men from the outside. I did not suggest that you could not get good men with-308J

in the service. Mr. Wright is one who has acquired his experience within the department but yet has proven himself efficient.

I do not understand the suggestion that Mr. Wright entered the service as a protege of Mr. Sutherland, the minister. Mr. Sutherland was not a minister in 1893.

But he became a minister afterwards, he was a member of parliament. He had a great deal of influence.

Mr. OLIVER.

Then he must have had a great deal of judgment in the selection of a messenger in this case at any rate. I think the argument of my hon. friend falls to the ground in the case of Mr. Wright.

And is entitled to promotion ?

Mr. OLIVER.

That may be. The House has the evidence that the hon. member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Knowles) that in the position which he occupies to-day-and I wish to say the same emphatically and from my own knowledge of the case-he is a thoroughly efficient employee.

I am not saying he is not.

Mr. OLIVER.

The proposal placed before the House is thoroughly warranted in liis case. Mr. Marchand is assistant accountant of the department. The accountancy is held by Mr. Beddoe. The branch, of course, is a large one. I need not say to the House that the question of accounting is a very important question. There are nineteen officials in the accounting branch. The Department of the Interior has business scattered all the way from Ottawa to Dawson city, and, in the proper conduct of that business, it has been found necessary, ever since I have been minister, to employ the services of the chief accountant, Mr. Beddoe, at distant points on several occasions. At the present time he is in Winnipeg, attending to the accounting in connection with the seed grain. It seems to me necessary to the service that there should be not only a chief accountant, but, when that chief accountant is necessarily absent, there should be some one to take his place-there should be an assistant or deputy

And he should be a chief clerk ?

Mr. OLIVER.

-and he should have rank and pay according to his abilities and responsibilities. I have stated that point before; it does no harm to emphasize it; if we are to have efficient service aud to retain men who have proven themselves efficient, we must pay those men fair and reasonable salaries. It is on that principle that I ask for the promotion of Mr. Mar-

chand to the rank and position and salary which I have asked.

Mr. MONK.

For my part, I think that the observations of the minister about the ' vortex ' and about the results of this ' vortex ' and its qualifying effects upon the new appointees, is not taken seriously by anybody. For, the presumption is that those who have served faithfully for many years, are entitled to promotion and advancement rather than to have men taken out of the ' vortex ' who have not had equal experience. Until we get a reform of the civil service, such as many people of this country have been looking for for many years-and we seem to be on the eve of it, if the government

Mr. FIELDING.

How long have the people been looking for that reform ?

Mr. MONK.

For my part, I have combatted in favour of that reform since I have been a member of this House, and I have been a member as long as the Minister of Finance has.

Mr. FIELDING.

I am afraid I have not heard my hon. friend (Mr. Monk).

-ot a single session has passed in which I have not pointed out the enormous difference between what is going on in this country and what goes on in every other civilized country of the world. As far back as ten years ago, I pointed out the improvements wrought in England and have named the books in which these improvements are clearly shown. I have shown the immense work, which, since 1882, has been going on in the same direction in the United States, while we have been steadily retrograding since twelve 1 ears. And a few days before the report of the commission was brought in, I used strong expressions in this House. I stated that our civil service at the present moment was rotten, worthless, and I hoped that the report which was then being worked out-and which, I fancy, was then a subject of some anxiety to the Minister of Finance-would give us relief. But this government, and my hon. friend the Minister of Finance, resemble the Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt. Under those kings, messengers who brought bad news were condemned to death, while those who brought good news were covered with flowers. Take this very instance; when cases of this kind come up the minister blames those who criticise the estimates as though they were trying to prevent the promotion and advancement of the particular civil servant whose case was being considered. Nothing has been said by my hon. friend from North Toronto (Mr. Foster) that would imply that. I do not know that these parti-Mr. OLIVER. I; . J *

cular men whose salaries are up for consideration are unfitted for promotion. But I say it is strange that, in every case, in the last twelve years, where anomalies of this kind have been pointed out, the answer of the minister has always been that the officer was promoted for efficiency- ' How is that efficiency as compared with that of other men in the service -' I am the judge of it ; I take the fullest responsibility for what it is proposed to do.' And that is all the satisfaction we get. I think that the only way to bring about this urgent and absolutely essential reform is to point out the conditions in every case until the government finds itself obliged to promote instead of retarding that very essential reform. This Mr. Pierre Marchand was appointed on 12th of December, 1899. He came in at $1,100. At the present moment, he is first-class clerk and assistant accountant at $1,000. I find in the civil service list two other first-class clerks appointed before Mr. Marchand. There are Mr. Peter Robertson, appointed on February 27, 1877; and Mr. Geo. Dalrymple Pope, appointed March 31, 1884. There are also second-class clerks: Mr. James Dunnet, appointed April 1, 1878 ; Mr. Samuel J. Willoughby, appointed January 12, 1886 ; and Mr. Henry Hamish Turner, appointed June 20, 1883. These are old civil servants. Are they inefficient as compared with the more recent appointees ? Does it not seem to the members of this committee that these men, if equally efficient, on account of priority of appointment ought to receive promotion, or ought to be given the chance which any properly organized civil service should give of obtaining promotion, rather than promote more recent appointees ? My hon. friend would lead the committee to believe that, taking a new man and advancing him rapidly over the heads of old employees-whom we. must presume to be efficient and capable men-is a valuable method of insuring the efficiency of the service. I think we are approaching a period of reform. I regret very much to see the spirit in which the government has received .the most valuable suggestions made under the most favourable circumstances for the government by the commissioners. I await with anxiety the measure which has been proposed and in which I hope to find the valuable suggestions referred to carried out. But, until that point is reached I will take every opportunity of pointing out to the committee and of making known to the public what I consider to be the cause of the insufficiency, as I find it, in the civil service in the province of Quebec in order to hurrv up that reform.

Mr. WARD.

The minister is not altogether consistent in this matter for at one

moment lie pleads that the large number of employees in his department is some excuse why justice should not be done in all matters appertaining to these promotions. The next moment he pleads that it is owing to the efficiency of these particular clerks that they are promoted. I do not see what the enormous number of employees has to do with this question at all because the minister only has to consider seventeen men in attending to the promotion of these two clerks. You will find there are two of these first-class clerks who are already in receipt of a salary of $1,900, and there are two already in receipt of a salary of $1,850. It does seem rather hard that gentlemen receiving the lowest salary of first-class clerks should be promoted over those who have been so much longer in the service as to be entitled to larger salaries. Mr. Marchand is receiving $1,600 and Mr. Roberts is receiving $1,500. They are selected and placed above other clerks who are in receipt of larger salaries. These men of large experience are at the top of the tree, in so far as first-class clerks are concerned and can receive no more salary, while Mr. Roberts is given an immediate advance of $-100 with the probability of next year receiving $2,300. It does seem to me that there is ground for the remarks of the hon. member for North Toronto, and there must be some reason why this rapid advancement is taking place in the matter of these two promotions.

Mr. FOSTER.

Are there any other promotions ? I see there are 26 second-class clerks, while last year there were 25. Who is the 26th?

Mr. OLIVER.

This is to give promotion to the second class of Mr. A. R. Mor-risset of the accountant's branch.

Mr. FOSTER.

Where is he now?

Mr. OLIVER.

He is a junior second-class clerk at $1,050.