Mr. FOSTER.

When was he appointed, and at what salary?

Mr. OLIVER.

He was appointed a tern porary clerk in 1898 at $400.

Mr. MONK.

Has he undergone the civil service examination?

Mr. OLIVER.

Yes.

Mr. FOSTER.

When was his first promotion?

Mr. OLIVER.

He was appointed on the 1st of July, 1898, and he was appointed to the permanent staff on the 1st July, 1901. He is attached to the accountant's branch as a junior second-class clerk.

Mr. FOSTER.

What was his salary in 1901?

Mr. OLIVER.

Mr. FOSTER.

What salary will he get as a second-class clerk?

Mr. OLIVER.

$1,200. He was appointed on the 1st July, 1901, at $600 as a junior second-class clerk and in 1903 the salary of iuniors was raised from $600 to $800.

Mr. FOSTER.

We find in this case an exact parallel if not a little more than a parallel. In 1898 Mr. Morrisett was appointed a temporary clerk at $400; in 1901 he was appointed a permanent clerk at $600, and in 1903 there was an increase in his salary. He then got $1,050 and under this vote he will get $1,200. In less than ten years he has gone from $400 to $1,200. Here are four samples that we have unearthed by a little process of questioning, every one of these have been placed in office by the government at low salaries and have been rushed forward, two of them to be chief clerks and one to be a second-class clerk. The remarks made by my hon. friend from Jacques Cartier (Mr. Monk) are altogether to the point in this respect.

Mr. MONK.

I would like to ask the minister if Peter Robertson, George Dalry-mple Pope, James Dunnet, Samuel J. Willoughby, Henry Hamish Turner, who are older employees than Mr. Marchand or Mr. Roberts are good and efficient employees ?

I do not know these men, but I would like to get that information from the minister. They have quite considerable salaries ranging from $1,300 to $1,600, and they occupy positions in the service as first and second-class clerks. Are they good and efficient men?

Mr. OLIVER.

I will have to ask the deputy in regard to the qualifications of these men. It is impossible for me to have knowledge of the qualifications of all the members of the service. But while these men may be perfectly competent, trustworthy and reliable in every way in the positions which they occupy they still may not be competent to take part of the supervision of the transactions of the accountant's branch as we expect the assistant accountant to do. These gentlemen are being paid for work which they are able to do aud do well, but that is no evidence that they are fit for a position of supervision.

Mr. MONK.

It all goes to show that these promotions ought not to be in the hands of the minister but in the hands of a commission who would make promotions under certain changeable rules.

Mr. GEOFFRION.

As it was before 1896.

That is a very small idea. There is no doubt this system has existed since confederation and like all rotten

systems it has become aggravated year after year. X do not care what was done previously, this is a question of essential reform that ought to be carried out. The Minister of the Interior is not able to tell us whether older and efficient employees are fit for the position, and yet he says this is an excellent mode of carrying on the civil service.

Mr. OLIVER.

I said I thought this was an efficient way of getting an efficient service, but I did not say there could not be a better mode. Even if we had a most conscientious Civil Service Commission there would sometimes be occasion for such appointments where men would get rapid promotion because of special efficiency and there would be the same grievance on the part of men who were longer in the service, who were doing the work they were at efficiently, but who were not specially qualified for the more important duties. I am aware of the propriety of the appointments we are asking the House to sanction, I admit I am not aware of how good other appointments might be.

Mr. MONK.

That is frank but it shows this is the worst possible system that could prevail. The effect of that system is to keep out of the public service good men and to chase out of it some of the very best men in the service.

Mr. FOSTER.

Have the civil servants in the Interior Department been paid for the past month?

Mr. OLIVER.

Sixty per cent of their salary was paid on the 10th.