Mr. GRAHAM.

I think there will be ample opportunity to dispose of everything in connection with it. On some propositions which will come before the House, it may not be necessary to dispose of this motion. We have no desire to side-track it at all. That is not my object.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

Of course, it is a very important consideration whether the motion is to be disposed of or not. If it is to ibe merely moved as an empty form in order that certain hon. gentlemen in this House may make speeches which will be very pleasing in their tone to their constituents, that is one thing ; if, on the other hand, the motion is a serious one, intended to evoke the deliberate opinion of this House upon the question of developing the Intercolonial railway not only in the province of Nova (Scotia but elsewhere, that is an entirely different question. While we all sympathize most thoroughly with what my hon. friend the Minister of Railways has said, respecting the absence of the Finance Minister, still whether the Minister of Finance returns or not, there are certain considerations which have been advanced, and with a great deal of force, by hon. gentlemen in this House, and which must not be delayed too long. I think it is just as well that we should all recognize that. As I understand, the Minister of Railways and Canals gives us his assurance that this motion will be taken up and disposed of during the present session. I would like to understand that definitely and positively, because the length of my remarks this evening will depend a little upon that.

Mr. GRAHAM.

I hope so, because I merely started the remarks I intended to make. After the Finance Minister returns, we hope to be able to introduce something that may possibly obviate the necessity of this motion. If not, I can assure my hon. friend that there will be a full opportunity to discuss it at a future day.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

I do not know whether my hon. friend who has made the motion is content that the debate shall be adjourned with that somewhat vague and indefinite promise, which may mean a great deal or may mean nothing at all.

Mr. GRAHAM.

Perhaps there may be a better understanding between my hon. friend the Minister of Railways and Canals and my hon. friend who moved this motion than I supposed in the first instance.

Mr. McKENZIE.

I can assure the leader of the opposition that there is no understanding with me by the Minister of Railways or any other minister except the definite understanding that this motion is to be pushed forward to its natural conclusion.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

Is my hon. friend content to have the debate adjourned and no vote taken? -

Mr. McKENZIE.

I am willing to accept the proposition of the Minister of Railways with the full understanding that this is to be taken up again.

Mr. BORDEN (Halifax).

But up to the present we have not a very definite understanding on that point, as far as I can judge from the very guarded language of my hon. friend the Minister of Railways, who is always sufficiently skilful to leave an opening by which he can, if necessary, avoid the issue. It, therefore, may be just as well for me to say a word or two now, as I am not sure that I will get another opportunity on this motion, notwithstanding the assurance of the Minister of Railways and the very pleasant and smiling way in which my hon. friend from Cape Breton (Mr. McKenzie) has accepted his proposal that this debate be adjourned. In the first place, the hon. minister, following the example of some other hon. gentlemen in this House, debated the question of what he calls government ownership, but what I would prefer to call state ownership, because I would like to remind my hon. friend that it is not the government but the country which owns the Intercolonial railway. And indeed I think he did emphasize that idea in his remarks although he spoke of that line as a government owned railway. Now one of the great difficulties with respect to the Intercolonial railway, which has existed since this government took office, is this, that the government has been in a state of uncertainty and vacillation as to whether or not it would give the Intercolonial railway its proper development. That has been the great difficulty. Why the Tight hon. the Prime Minister has himself on several occasions denounced the idea of this country owning the Intercolonial railway. In Toronto, in 1904, I think it was, speaking of the operation of the Intercolonial railway, he said that all the evil results he then pointed out were due to the system. He did not explain clearly what he meant by the system; but as far as I was able to apprehend his remarks, taken in connection with other speeches made by him here and elsewhere, he thought that the

difficulties which had overtaken the country in connection with the Intercolonial railway were due to the fact that that railway was owned by the state and he despaired of any effective or proper operation so long as it continued to belong to the state. Well, I have never shared that view. The railways in Australia have been pointed to, but we need not go so far as Australia. I can point to the operation of the government railways in the province of Ontario. It may be that the government railways in Ontario have been operated during the past six or eight years under very favourable conditions, but we should also bear in mind that they have given exceedingly favourable results. Taking last year, 1 find that their total operating revenue was $1,361,224.80, that their operating expenses were $794,796.88, and that the net operating revenue was no less than $566,428. And that does not include the ore royalties and other items of that kind which ought not properly to be taken into consideration in comparing these railways -with the Intercolonial railway. So that for the last year for which we have anj return, the Ontario government railways paid into the treasury of Ontario no less than a sum of $550,000 which was added to the consolidated revenue fund of that province. The Ontario government railways were subject to all the disadvantages pointed out by the Minister of Railways. These disadvantages I do not wish to minimize, but I want to tell my hon. friend that the Intercolonial railway runs through a country in the maritime provinces with equally great resources. I have declared often that the little province of Nova Scotia, in proportion to its size, has as splendid natural resources, a great many of which are still undeveloped, as any equal area in the Dominion. There can be no doubt about that. And those resources, as they continue to be developed, will give the Intercolonial railway the opportunity of adding to its revenue from that province, so that I agree entirely in what my hon. friend from Bictou (Mr. Macdonald) said with regard to the operation of the Intercolonial railway iH that province. I believe that were it not for the splendid revenue the Intercolonial railway does draw from Nova Scotia, its showing would be infinitely worse than it has been during the recent or any years. There are great natural resources in that province, some of them developed and some undeveloped; and I understand the motion of my hon. friend from Cape Breton and North Victoria (Mr. McKenzie) was designed-if it had any object at all-to take the Intercolonial railway within the province of Nova Scotia into those parts of that province where natural resources are -waiting to be developed; and the same principle should also apply elsewhere. Something has been said about other counties of Nova Scotia, and I would like to say a word or two on behalf of the county I represent. Until the Halifax and Southwestern railway was built, the county of Halifax-having a coast line of 140 miles and a width of from 25 to 50 miles had not within its limits more than 30 or 40 miles of railway. East of the city of Halifax and within the limits of the county, there are at least 100 miles, stretching to the limits of the county of Guysborough, where there is absolutely no railway accommodation whatever. A part of that district is a splendid agricultural section where the people have to haul their products from 25 to 40 miles to a railway station. There are plenty of timber lands in that section, there is opportunity for great mineral developments, there is great natural wealth; and although, as my colleague from Halifax (Mr. Crosby) has said, a railway from Halifax to Guysborough will not pay in the very first instance, there is reason to believe that it would pay before being in operation many years. I passed along the shore of the county of Halifax to the county of Guysborough last summer. i travelled altogether about 500 miles through districts not served by railways at all, and -Where railway development would mean a great deal to the people and lead to considerable development in that little province.

I can tell -the Minister of Railways a great many things I saw, I could speak of a great many districts where railway facilities might mean a great deal to the people, and might lead to very great progress and advancement in that little province.

I saw, in the county of Guysborough, just across the line from the county of Halifax, one of the most splendid harbours that can toe found anywhere in the world-Country Harbour. This harbour stretches back ten miles from its mouth, with water close up to the shore everywhere from forty-five to sixty feet in depth, landlocked twice, and with a splendid roadstead outside, where, in almost any weather, ships can ride in safety-and have ridden in safety-without going inside. And in what condition did I find the place ? Not more than a dozen families are living around that harbour. There was no railway development, no opportunity for commerce, and the fishermen had gone to the adjoining Isaac's Harbour or Fishermen's Harbour, for the reason that -these smaller harbours would subserve theiT purposes better than this magnificent Country Harbour of which I have spoken. All along that shore are opportunities of development. The people of Halifax county, as well as those of Guysborough county, and those of other coun

ties in the province of Nova Scotia to which allusion has been made, have, it seems to me, fairly good reason to complain that their interests in respect of railway development, have not been properly attended to in the past. And especially is this true of the last fourteen years, when the coffers of this country have been filled to overflowing, according to the boasts of hon. gentlemen on the other side, and when huge projects of development have been undertaken. The Minister of Railways and Canals say that great projects have been undertaken and are being undertaken to-day. In that connection, I have just this "word to say: If the resources and revenues of this country are great enough to build 1,400 miles of railway through a practically uninhabited country between the city of Quebec and the city of Winnipeg, it seems to me, there is good reason for complaint on the part of the people of at least half a dozen counties in the province of Nova Scotia, that the Intercolonial railway has not been developed and carried into these counties. It seems to me that, where these people have been living for a hundred years-as, in many counties of Nova Scotia they have been-without opportunity: for railway communication, we might well have had a little regard for them before we commenced to build 1,400 miles of railway through a country with absolutely no population and of the resources of which we have no adequate knowledge, though, at this moment, the railway is now perhaps, more than half constructed. It comes down simply to this: Does the government of this country propose to maintain the Intercolonial railway of Canada as a state-owned railway, or is it vacillating and hesitating, unable to make up its mind as to whether that road is to be a state-owned railway or is to be handed over to some private corporation for operation? I will assume for the moment that it is the intention of the government, as I believe it is the will of the people of Canada, that ithe Intercolonial shall still continue to be owned by the people of this country. Then, I say, it is the duty of the government, under these conditions, to give to the Intercolonial railway, not only in the province of Nova Scotia, but in every province of Canada, that development and that extension which a private corporation would give to that road, should it pass into the ownership of such a corporation. This is no time for hesitation and vacillation. Make up your mind -and "I hope you have made it up in the direction I have indicated ; then, give to the Intercolonial the branches, feeders, extensions which would be given if it were owned by any of the great railway corporations.

I had intended to devote some attention Mr. BORDEN Halifax).

to certain of the observations made in the course of this debate. But the hour is late, and I have given to the House and to the Minister of Railways the idea that is in my mind as to the proper course of the government in this matter. I trust the debate will not be allowed to come to a conclusion without a full and definite statement from the government, as to its policy on this subject; and I trust that the policy, when announced, will be in the way of extension and development of the people's great railway, which has done so much- whatever may be said against it-to bind together in one united whole, the various provinces of this Dominion of Canada.