Reid (Grenville). I rise to a question of privilege. On my arrival here this morning I noticed in last night's issue of the Ottawa 'Free Press' the following headings on an article.
'A Conservative member of parliament got yacht repaired at country's expense.
Dr. Reid of Grenville has received favours from the Marine Department at Prescott- Uprwin paid on the repairs to his tug 'Victor" but Conservative member has not made good.'
I want to say that this is absolutely untrue. So far as I am concerned, the government works at Prescott never did any work on jny yacht, so far as I know, that I have not paid for. . . . This matter will come up in the committee on Wednesday next, when I shall be present, and I hope the Minister of Marine will be there too, so that the question can be gone into thoroughly. In the meantime I state that I deny the whole matter absolutely.
Having been made aware that a matter similar in character had come up in parliament in the session of 1907-8, I thought it well to inquire what were the circumstances surrounding the particular incident to which the hon. member for Grenville had reference, and I have procured a copy of the evidence. I desire hon. gentlemen, particularly the hon. member for Grenville, not to understand me as going into this question for the purpose of arguing that he had committed any offence against the independence of parliament. I simply do so for the purpose of pointing out that in the conclusion which I have come to with reference to the charges made against the hon. member for Richelieu, I have been guided by the evidence elicited in the case in which the hon. member for Grenville was concerned. This is the evidence taken before the Public Accounts Committee on June 10, 1908. The witness on the stand is Mr. J. Offspring, an official of the Department of Marine and Fisheries, in the town of Prescott:
Q. Tell me the names of some of the boats or vessels you worked on in 1905 P-A. There was the 'Reserve,' the 'Maisonneuve,' 'Lot-biniere'.
Q. And the 'Dack'P-A. Yes.
Q. What did you do to her?-A. Hauled her out in the fall, kept her over all the winter on the ways, and in the spring did some work on her.
Q. By whose instructions did you haul her out?-A. A. J. F. Fraser's.
Q. What work did you do to her?-A. Put a caulker, a carpenter and a labourer on her.
Q. How many days did the caulker work?- A. Two days, I think. [DOT]
Q. Who paid this man?-A. Well, I tried to find Dr. Reid and could not, and I went to the office and told Mr. Noble that the man wanted to go home in the morning, and Noble paid him.
Q. Was it paid from the government or private funds?-A. I understand that Mr. Noble paid it out of his own pocket.
Q. What Dr. Reid are you referring to? -A. John D. Reid.
Q. What .is his business?-A. He has a starch factory at this time.
Q. Was he the owner of the boat?-A. I understand that he was.
Q. Who also worked on this boat-other employees?-A. Well, Malone put in the planking.
Q. What is the business?-A. Ship carpenter.
Q. How many days did he work?-A. Two and a half days I think, he put in six planks.
Q. And who else?-A. Mr. McGarr did the scraping and some painting.
Q. Have you any knowledge of how many days he worked?-A. I could not say exactly.
Q. Well, we will get that another way-However, he worked some days on this boat? -A. Yes.
Q. Was he in the employ of the department?-A. Yes, he was a government man.
Q. Anybody else?-A. John Earner-he was one of the labourers.
By Mr. Northrup:
Q. How many labourers?-A. McGarr and Earner.
By Mr. Carvell:
Q. Do you remember Lalonde?-A. That is a carpenter.
Q. Yes, did he work?-A. Yes, two and a half days.
Q. What were his wages?-A. $2.25 per day.
By Mr. Northrup:
Q. Was there a man named Malone and one named Lalonde?-A. It is one man I think. He goes by both names; I cannot tell you which he had then.
By Mr. Carvell:
Q. Lalonde is a carpenter?-A. Yes.
Q. Salary $2.25 a day and he worked how long?-A. Two and a half days.
Q. Did you have to do any work in order to get things ready to get this boat out of the water?-A. Yes, we had to get ways in.
Q. For the purpose of getting this boat out? -A. Well, for all of them.
Q. How many did you haul out?-A. Four altogether.
Q. How much time was occupied in getting the ways in?-A. I . . . well it cost about
$200. We had everything ready to haul out for $290.
By Mr. Northrup.
Q. That is for the ways?-A. Yes.
By Mr. Carvell.
Q. And after the ways once got ready you pulled out for boats?-A. Yes.
Q. The yacht 'Dack' was one of them?-A. Yes, of course.
Q. Did the other boats that you have named belong to the department or to private parties? -A. They belonged to the department.
Q. All the boats you worked on, with the exception of the 'Dack,' belonging to the department?-A. Yes.
Q. Well, now, who kept the men's time for this work along with other work?-A. Well, we had a time keeper.
Q. Did yon keep books yourself?-A. I made out the time and put it in the office.
Q. Have you these original books that were kept?-A. No, I haven't got them. When we have done with the books we return them to the office.
Q. Who was the official who kept the books in the office?-A. Mr. Mundle.
Q. Do you know that they make up a regular time sheet every month?-A. As far as I know, they do.
Q. I have here the time sheets for the month of May produced by Mr. Boyle, who is the officer in charge. We could have Mr. Mundle here to swear to them if necessary. I notice in this time sheet, over the marks representing the work on days by Mr. McGarr, that the letter 'R' is marked?-A. Every man who worked on the boat for Reid you will find his name marked with an "R".
Q. That means that on that day he worked on Reid's boat?-A. Every man who worked on Reid's boat I marked their name, so that there would be no mistake about it.
By Mr. Northrup:
Q. Is that your sheet?
Mr. Carvell.-No, it is a copy.
By Mr. Northrup.
Q. Are you prepared to swear that that is your sheet?-A. No.
Mr. Carvell.-We can call Boyle as to that.
By Mr. Northrup:
Q. When you handed in your time sheets were you particular to mark the number of days that each man worked on Reid's boat? -A. Very particular, and took all pains to do so.
Q. Now, on this document produced as the official time sheet we find the letter 'R' over marks representing day's work by McGarr, and these 'R's' are over the days of the 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 15th, 16th, 17th,
18th, 19th, 23rd, 24th, 25th, 26th, and 27th of May, 1905. Do you know, as a matter of fact, that in the month of May, 1905, McGarr worked on Reid's boat?-A. Yes, I know he worked on the boat.
Q. But you do not know, as a matter of fact, the exact days I have mentioned?-A. I could not say that.
Q. But in the month of May he worked on Reid's boat?-A. Yes.
Q. I find ' R ' over these days in the month of May, and you say that for some days he worked on Reid's boat, and you so reported it?-A. Yes, I reported every day he worked on that boat.
Q. Now, Lalonde-did you also report to the head office the days Lalonde worked on Mr. Reid's boat?-A. Well, I cannot mind exactly whether I did or not.
Q. Well, now, I find in this sheet on the 9tb of May, 1909, the letter * R ' marked over one-half day and ' R ' marked oyer the 10th and 11th against Lalonde; that is ' R ' over two and a-half days' work of Lalonde in 1905. Did he work on Reid's boat two and a-half days?-A. Yes, he put in six planks on that boat in the two and a-half days he worked.
Q. This man Lalonde, the man you said was paid by Noble?-A. No; his name, I think, was David Mountry. I do not know whether
that is the right name or not, it is always the name he went by.
By Mr. Carvell:
Q. Do you know who prepared this account I am showing to you, that is do you know of your own knowledge?-A. I think that is Mundle's writing.
Q. Give me this man's name as nearly as you can?-A. David Mountry, I think. I cannot find it on the government pay-list for the month of May. It may be spelled differently, but I cannot find it on the official time sheet.
Q. There is a D. Montrel, a calker?-A. That is the man.
Q. You look at that list for the month of May, and see if the letter ' R ' is over anv of his day's work?-A. I do not find it.
Q. Did you find it over any of his day's work?-A. I do not.
Q. Did he work after the 7th day of May, in the year 1905?-A. I cannot tell you exactly what day it was.
Q. According to this time sheet did he?-A. No, sir.
Q. Did Dr. Reid have any other boat repaired at the government expense?-A. Yes, he had one hauled out since.
Q. Yes, the name, please?-A. The 'Helen.'
Q. What was done to her ?-A. Just hauled out.
Q. Reid furnished his own men for the work on her?-A. Yes, and the timber.
Q. All the department did was to loan the ways for him to do his own work on?-A. Yes.
Q. And, so far as you know, there was no charge to Reid for that?-A. Not so far as I know.
Bv Mr. Northrup.
Q. Were you there?-A. Yes.
Q. Tell me how you came to haul Reid's boat up?-A. Dr. Reid spoke about hauling the boat up.
Q. Spoke to who?-A. To the office.
Q. You ought to speak of your own knowledge. What was it first that you knew?-A. He came to me and said he had leave to haul out his boat.
Q. And what was said by you?-A. I said, you get around and as soon as I am ready I will haul her up.
Q. And what then?-A. He sent around the boat to our slip.
Q. His factory is near you?-A. Yes.
Q. So that it was only a few feet to haul around?-A. Yes.
Q. He had his men bring it around?-A. I believe they did and tied it to the slip.
Q. Dp you know why his men did not haul her up?-A. I think they did not have enough men.
Q. Why did they not pull her up?-A. Well, I think they did not know enough to pull her up.
Q. Then she was left there at the ways?-. The ways were not ready at the time. She was left there until the ways were ready.
Q. How long did it take to pull her up?-A. I don't think it was more than an hour. We hauled her from the water 110 feet.
Q. Do you think you did that in an hour? You haul these boats along two rails, do you? -A. No, I used holders outside the rails.
Q. Then your power comes from what?-A. A capstan.
Q. How many mem?-A. I did not liave any men to work the capstan, I had a horse.
Q. Do you remember what repairs were made on the ' Dack '?-A. Scraping and painting and puttying, and putting in six new planks and caulking.
Q. How long would the six planks be?-A. They were 16 feet planks, one and a quarter inch stuff.
Q. Six pieces of one and a quarter-inch stuff were put in?-A. Yes.
Q. As a practical man, how long would you say it would take to put in those six planks? -A. It took a carpenter two days and a half.
Q. Did he do all that himself?-A. All himself, except that when he wanted a plank to be lifted he called the labourers.
Q. The labourers being for work on the ground?-A. Yes,
Q. When he wanted a plank lifted he would call one of the labourers to help?-A. Yes.
Q. Besides putting in the plates, you painted and puttied and caulked?-A. That is right. .
Q. And the caulking was done by this man Montrel?-A. Yes.
Q. And there -was no charge made to the department for that?-A. Not that I know of.
Q. How long did it take a man to scrape that boat?-A. It would take one man three or four days to scrape her.
Q. Do you remember, as a matter of fact, that any one .man did work three or four days?-A. McGarr worked on it.
Q. Did he do all the scraping?-A. Yes, as far as I remember.
Q. Now, about the painting?-A. McGarr did the painting, too.
Q. What else was there? We had the calking accounted for, the putting in of the plates, the scraping and the puttying. What else was done on the boat?-A. That is about all I know of.
Q. Then we are quite clear that one man did the painting and another man the carpentry and put in the plates, and he had another man to help him when he wanted to lift a plank, and the man McGarr did the scraping?-A. Yes.
Q. And the puttying?-A. Yes.
Q. That accounts for all the work done?- A. All that I know of.
Q. .So far then we have only McGarr and the carpenter (Lalonde). These are the only two. We won't bother about the caulker, for he was paid outside?-A. There was somebody else. I did not remember. There was a man called Aimer, he worked on it.
Q. What do you say he did?-A. If I remember right, Aimer helped to put her back into the water.
Q. You say that one .man, a carpenter, put in the planks, another man, McGarr, also did the puttying and also the scraping?-A. Yes.
Q. Now, can you tell me anything that was done besides carpentry work, painting and puttying?-A. Putting her in the water.
Q. That is not repairs. So that all the work on that boat outside caulking was done by carpenter Lalonde and McGarr?-A. That is so far as I know. .
Q. And you were there all the time?-A. I was there all the time.
Q. That being the case, what would you I think of this extraordinary document (time sheet produced). I see we have McGarr ap-Mr. KYTE.
parently working sixteen days?-A. I cannot tell you how many he worked.
By Mr. Northrup-
Q. Would you pledge yonr oath that this man McGarr worked for fifteen days?-A. I cannot tell you how many he worked.
Q. There is an entry here for a caulker, paid at $3 a day or $2.35 a day, paid to May 5. Do you remember this man?-A. No man worked for $2.25.
Q. It is here $3 a day?-A. That is right.
Q. Leland, as a caulker, was paid to May 5 at $3 a day, and then there are the figures $2.25 paid and then three hours?-A. I do not know anything about that.
Q. You would not say that ie made np from your sheet?-A. I do not know anything about that. I know he caulked more than two days.
Q. Do you remember the fact of this caulker working for the government at the same time and then being paid off?-A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember that he was working for the government and that he was paid off, and that he then worked for Dr. Reid?- A. Dr Reid asked me three days before, and I told him I could not put on a caulker just then, but that I would in a short time, and that as soon as the work was done I would put him on.
Q. He was discharged from the government and afterwards worked for Dr. Reid?-A.Yes.
Q. The government have nothing to do with the caulker at the time he was working for Dr. Reid?-A. Not at all.
Q. If the government pay-sheet shows six days charged against him, that would be wrong?-A. I cannot say.
Mr. Northrup.-According to this account put in, there are a caulker, painter, carpenter and two labourers apparently, and then two men had half a day each, so there would be four or five labourers apparently.
Q. Can you give me any idea of your own knowledge of wbat took place, wbat labourers would be doing on that boat?-A. Labourers were painting.
Q. You told me that McGarr did all the painting?-A. McGarr did the painting, he was a labourer working on the boat.
Q. The painting was all done by McGarr?- A. As far as I can tell you.
Q. If any labourers time is charged for, would you say that that was for hauling her out or putting her hack?-A. I suppose that is what it would he for.
Q. I find this item:-' To getting ways ready and hauling out, $28.56/ Did you send in any items from which that would he made up?- A. I think Mr. Mundle took over the matter.
Q. When?-A. The same fall.
Q. How would you average up?-A. We averaged up and then we charged Dr. Reid.
Q. Yon told us a little while ago that you thought the ways cost about $200?-A. Yes in the neighbourhood of $200.
Q. How did you arrive at this $28.66 for getting ways ready and hauling out?-A. We took the $200 and put so much ou the heavy boats and put a little on Dr. Reid's boat. We divided it up as far as we could.
Q. The department has spent $200 on their ways. They had had four boats on ways and they figured out that Dr. Reid's proportionate share would he about $28.66?-A. Yes.
Q. When you charged $28.66 it is clearly un-
derstood that that was not based on the particular time that any man took. It was just based on the average cost?-A. The average cost.
Q. This took place in 1905 and you handed in your slips day by day, reporting what was done in May, 1905. Did you ever ask Dr. Reid to pay any bill?-A. I had nothing to do with that.
Q. You did not know of any bills being rendered?-A. No.
Q. When you handed in your slips, did you do anything more?-A. No.
Q. What brought the account to your mind. You started in May, 1905, when did you next hear about these charges against Dr. Reid?- A. I did not hear anything about it until some time this summer or the spring.
Q. The spring of 1908?-A. Yes.
By Mr. Reid (Grenville):
Q. Was there any work done on Sunday on that boat?-A. Not that I know of.
Q. Are you positive?-A. I never have any of them working on Sunday.
Q. You are sure?-A. Yes, none of my men worked on Sunday.
Q. If that time-sheet shows that some of them worked on Sunday, you would say it was untrue?-A. There might have been a watchman put on on Sunday.
Q. Supposing it mentioned that any of these men worked on Sunday at that, you would say it was untrue?-A. I do not remember any of them working on Sunday.
Q. Take McGarr, you are sure that McGarr did not work on Sunday at that boat?-A. Not that I know of; I do not think so.
Now, one other matter referred to that, I think, has special application to the charges made against the hon. member for Richelien:
Q. Did you know anything about a gas tank? -A. I placed it myself.
Q. Where was it?-A. Down at the east fence on the government property.
Q. Take this plan. Will you point out where it was? Was it placed as close to the starch factory as you could get it?-A. Yes, on the government property.
Q. But as close to their property as you could get it, and yet have it on your own property?-A. Yes, right inside the fence.
Q. I think there was correspondence ahont that, we may as well have that, too. I find this letter:
October 19, 1904.
Dear Dr. Reid,-On further consideration it seems to me to be practical to roll the steel store roller on the east side of the depot. There will he less pipe required this way than any other. I have given instructions to have this carried out at once.
F. F. FRASiER, Commissioner of Lights.
Q. What 'was meant by steel store roller?- A. That must be the same gas holder.
Q. That must he the gas tank placed on the east side of your lot?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it says there will be less pipe required this way than any other. What was the pipe for, do you know?-A. I guess we ran the pipe down from the valve, down to the ground and under the fence.
<3. Where to?-A. We ran it under the fence so that Dr. Reid could attach his pipe.
Q. Did Dr. Reid attach his pipe to your pipe?-A. Yes.
Q. And carried it to his factory?-A. Yes.
Q That was in your own knowledge?-A. Yes.
Q. Did Dr. Reid use acetylene gas from the government works?-A. He used some.
Q. For how long?-A. I cannot tell. There was a man there trying some new process. I heard of it. They could not get along without gas and they used the gas for that.
Q. For how long?-A. I think they filled three times to my knowledge.
Q. Kindly explain what you mean by filling?-A. Putting gas in.
Q. Ho-w much gas would it take to fill it?- A. I 'think it would hold about 70 atmospheres.
Q. And you pumped that in three times?- A. Three times to my knowledge.
Q. What would be the value of that gas to fill the tank once?-A. I cannot give the figures.
Q. Anyway you know there would he 210 atmospheres pumped in ?-A. Somewhere about that.
Q. Do you know whether a government dredge did any work in front of Dr. Reid's property, the starch company's property?- A. I had a dredge digging there and she ran two outs, one down and one back. I do not know who it was done for.
Q. Was it done in front of his property?- A. Yes, in front of 'his property. She took one cut down and one back, two cuts.
It is only fair to the hon. member for Grenville that I should read the evidence given by him in answer to the evidence I have just read: