May 10, 1911

CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

Do those who use the cold storage on these ships for their dairy products, &e., get better terms on account of this subsidy? Some years ago when the cold storage arrangement was entered into, we provided that those who use it should get a better rate than the ordinary rate, but I think of late years that arrangement has not been adhered to.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

All the rates are under the control of the Minister of Trade and Commerce. The contract reads:

It is further understood and agreed that the tolls to be charged in the way of either freight or passenger rates between ports on both east and westbound trips shall always under substantially similar circumstances and conditions, be charged equally to all persons, and at the same rate, whether by weight or otherwise, in respect of all traffic of the same description and receiving in carriage the like accommodation; and further, that no toll shall be charged which discriminates against Canadian merchants or shippers or against emigrants to Canada.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

That is all right so far as it goes, but originally there was a provision that the cold storage rates on these subsidized steamers would be less than on unsubsidized steamers. I think that that arrangement was dropped some time ago. As the First Minister says, this service ought to be self-supporting without a subsidy, but when we give .a subvention ostensibly for the mail service it ought to help to stimulate the exportation of these perishable products and secure a larger return for the farmers of the country by enabling them to ship at lower rates.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LATJRIER.

All these are valuable considerations for the next contract.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

Joseph Elijah Armstrong

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. ARMSTRONG.

I am glad to know that the Prime Minister has not renewed this contract. Might I suggest to him a point worthy of consideration, that, while the rate from Liverpool to Halifax is, I think, seventeen shillings, the rate from Liverpool to New York is only nine or ten shillings, and, steamers receiving this large subsidy should be practically forced to compete in freight rates with the port of New York. If that were done, it would help our land transportation systems.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
Permalink
LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

Hear, hear.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
Permalink
CON

Thomas Simpson Sproule

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. SPROULE.

I agree with the First Minister that we ought to have a much faster Atlantic service. We have for years past engaged in a childish effort to negotiate with these people who are providing boats for the service which are away behind the age, if not in comfort, certainly in speed. It is time we should have a faster Atlantic service than we have had.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
Permalink
LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

Hear, hear.

Steam service between Canada and Cuba, $25,000.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

John Waterhouse Daniel

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DANIEL.

What are the details of this service?

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

Yes, this change has been made by the minister since the contract was let.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
Permalink
CON

John Waterhouse Daniel

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DANIEL.

Are all the vessels named, British vessels?

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
Permalink
LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

Some of these which were used at first are not. We now pay no subsidy except to British boats.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

Edward Guss Porter

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. PORTER.

Is the trade with Cuba growing satisfactorily?

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

Yes.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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LIB

William Cameron Edwards

Liberal

Mr. EDWARDS.

I cannot understand on what basis the amounts of these subsidies are fixed. Comparing the trade with Mexico and Cuba for the past four years, I find that our imports from these countries were:

Year Mexico. Cuba.1906 '

$297,516 $445,1001907'

492,299 475,3191908

919,826 515,1631909

315,334 496,4851910

559,122 841,209

Our imports from Cuba into Canada have almost doubled since 1906. Our exports to the two countries were:

Exports to Exports to

Year Mexico. Cuba.1906

$259,372 $1,221,7661910

904,957 1,737,385

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
Permalink
LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

The contractors are Wm. Thomson & Co., Limited. The date of the contract is December 1, 1909, and it expired on the 7th of January, 1911.

The steamships are the following:

Name. Net. Gross. Capacity. Tons. Tons. Tons.* Trongate \ . .. .. 1,619 2,552 2,700* Ottringham 9 .. .. 1,698 2,679 5,100* Gogovale '.. .. .. 2,038 3,097 5,2501 Leuctra ' .. .. .. 1,950 3,207 5,032* Benedick '.. .. .. 1,581 2,440 'Bencliff' .. .. .. 1,385 2,210

In addition to the above steamers, the * Felix/ ' Snestad J and ' Haakon ' were also employed.

They are all ten knot steamers, and no cold storage provided. It is a monthly service from St. John to Havana, and the subsidy is $25,000 per annum.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

John Waterhouse Daniel

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DANIEL.

Is that a direct service both ways or are the vessels allowed to call at American ports?

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
Permalink
LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

It is a direct service down, but on the return journey when the contractors show that they cannot get sufficient cargor they are allowed to proceed to American ports to complete.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
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CON

John Waterhouse Daniel

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DANIEL.

In calling for tenders was it not stipulated that it should be a direct service both ways?

It will be seen that our trade with Mexico is very much smaller than our trade with Cuba, and yet the subsidy granted to the steamship iines running between Canada and Cuba, is $25,000 while the subsidy for the steamship service between Canada and Mexico on the Atlantic is $50,000, and on the Pacific $*75,000. That is, our subsidy for the steamship service between Mexico and Canada on the Atlantic is twice as large as our subsidy for the steamship service to Cuba, yet our trade with Cuba is very much larger than our trade with Mexico. I do not understand on what basis the subsidies are granted. If they are granted to facilitate trade one would naturally expect that there would be some proportion between the subsidies granted and the amount of trade. The subsidies seem to be in inverse ratio to the trade.

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
Permalink
LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER.

Perhaps that is the reason we pay the larger subsidy to Mexico, because the trade is in its infancy and has to be encouraged more than the trade with Cuba. Another reason is that the service with Cuba is from St. John to Havana, whereas the trade with Mexico is from Montreal to Mexico, a much longer voyage. The trade with Mexico is of very recent growth, it did not exist ten years ago, while the trade between the maritime provinces and the West Indies is very old, in. fact has been carried on as long as these

Topic:   SUPPLY.
Subtopic:   J. A. FRASER, A.G.
Permalink

May 10, 1911