Mr. NEELY:

I did not say that he took the public platform; I said he was advertised to take the public platform.

Mr. ROCHE:

Mr. Campbell is not responsible for being advertised at any meeting and I personally know that he is not so fond of appearing and speaking at public meetings that now, since he has become an official of the Government, he would take part in such a meeting. I do not believe he appeared on that platform and delivered a speech.

Again, the hon. member takes exception to his visiting Qu'Appelle, because, in the not distant future, there is to be a provincial by-election in that constituency, at which his brother-in-law, Mr. McDonald, is to be the candidate. I do not know whether Mr. McDonald has -been selected as candidate or not.

Mr. NEELY:

I said he was not to be the candidate.

Mr. ROCHE:

Then the grievance is that he appeared with his brother-in-law and was travelling through that constituency and the hon. gentleman, being suspicious as he is, immediately jumped to the conclusion that because, at some time in the future, there is to be a by-election in that constituency, therefore Mr. Campbell and his brother-in-law, whom he 5 p.m. was probably visiting, must be on mischief bent. Therefore he holds Mr. Campbell up to the odium of the country through this Parliament on a charge of canvassing on behalf of a candidate who has not yet been selected, to my knowledge, on behalf of the Conservative party.

His other accusation is a very serious one touching the character of Mr. Campbell. While half-breeds are not, as he says, the wards of the Government, and Mr. Campbell's particular jurisdiction is to look after the Indians, still it is reprehensible for anybody-I am sure the hon. member for Humboldt deplores the idea of his taking a half-breed into a hotel and buying him even one drink. But if the accusation is true as made by the hon. member for Humboldt that Mr. Campbell did that, it is a very serious accusation, and I certainly will submit those charges to Mr. Campbell and allow him to make his defence. The hon. gentleman and his friends opposite have frequently taken us to task on this side for daring to dispense

with the services of any man of the Liberal persuasion without giving that official an opportunity to defend himself; and I am sure he will not take exception if I take the same course in the case of Mr. Campbell. The opportunity of hearing those charges was afforded me for the first time this afternoon, I did not know their nature and therefore I have no papers from the department which might gainsay the accusation against Mr. Smythe on other charges. But I think such complaints ill become hon. gentlemen opposite, with the record they had when they were on this side in connection with their officers. I need not go beyond the confines of my own constituency. There has not been an election since 1896, when 1 first contested Marquette, that it has not been overrun by hordes of Liberal officials using their utmost services in favour of the Liberals. I entered no strong protest against it, it was part of the game; I did not put up a squeal in Parliament about it; but now as there is some suspicion, yes, it is all based on suspicion, of Mr. Campbell taking part in a by-election about to take place in Saskatchewan, immediately the hon. member for Humboldt, in that virtuous or simulated indignation of his, rises to take the Government to task for something of which Mr. Campbell may have been entirely guiltless. I think these accusations, in the main, are rather puerile. The one the hon. member made against Mr. Campbell personally is a serious accusation against his personal character which I shall bring to Mr. Campbell's notice immediately, and I shall also give the hon. gentleman the opportunity of receiving Mr. Campbell's reply.

Hon. FRANK OLIVER (Edmonton):

I

do not think there is any question that the House is very much disappointed at hearing so bold an announcement from the present Minister of the Interior-I speak of it as it comes to me-of an intention to administer his department as a political machine.

Mr. ROCHE:

Suspicion again.

Mr. OLIVER:

My hon. friend suggests that the administration of departments under the previous government was of that nature. I had the honour of administering that department for a term of years. My hon. friend, I think, is aware that definite instructions were issued by myself, pending either a Dominion or a provincial election, forbidding officers of the department to take part in those elections. My hon. friend

may say that that order was disregarded, but it will surely be understood that if he, as a member of Parliament, had brought to my attention such an incident as has been brought to his attention to-day, I would have been compelled either to dismiss the official or to admit that I was in a position that no minister or no member of Parliament ever could maintain.

Mr. ROCHE:

Is that what you did with Phillip Wagner?

Mr. OLIVER:

There was no accusation

brought against Phillip Wagner for his actions while I was minister; and he was appointed by me.

Mr. ROCHE o He was in jail before you became minister.

Mr. OLIVER:

He was in jail before I

was appointed. I appointed Phillip Wagner because he was competent for the position. He filled the position acceptably. There was no protest against his appointment and no objection to any action of Phillip Wagner's after he had been appointed by me.

Mr. EDWARDS:

Did you give public

notice that you were going to appoint him!1

Mr. OLIVER:

I appointed Phillip Wagner for good and sufficient reasons, and I stood by the appointment for good and sufficient reasons There was no political reason against Mr. Wagner. Never during my administration of that department was an allegation received in the manner this has been received by the present administrator of that department. My hon. friend, it seems to me, scarcely appreciates the importance of the department of which he is the head, and how far the administration of that department affects the well-being and the progress of Canada. This House will surely realize that the welfare and the progress of Canada depends very largely [DOT]upon the settlement of the prairies, and that the settlement of those prairies depends very largely upon the fairness with which this Government deals with the settlers. When my hon. friend stands before this House, and gives the House and country to understand that the officials of the Department of the Interior have free rein to use the authority vested in them for the advantage of the party in power, I say he throws discredit on the Government of Canada; he terrorizes the settler on the prairie and restricts settlement to that extent. I ask my hon. friends who are not acquainted with the conditions of settlement on the

prairie, to give a moment's attention while I place those conditions before them. A man takes up a homestead far from a railroad and has his wife and family with him. He lives under difficult circumstances, and in a large number of cases without means, excepting such as he can earn at intervals. He depends on getting the patent for his land. To him that patent means his living; it means in many cases his life; and his getting of that patent is to depend upon the dictation of the homestead inspector that my hon. friend appoints, and who is authorized to give, or withhold, his recommendation according to the political views of the man applying for the patent! A more outrageous proposition has never been been placed before the Parliament of Canada. There has never before been a minister in the Parliament of Canada who dared to take such a position before Parliament. Has this action had any effect? Homestead entries have decreased in two years by nearly 10,000- nearly 10,000 less in 1913 than in 1911-and I ask you to believe me when I tell you that this policy of political administration of the Lands Department of this Government has had much to do with that deplorable decrease in settlement.

Mr. BRADBURY:

How ?

Mr. OLIVER:

Because the settlers are terrorized by the officers of my hon. friend, and no man will take the chances that he has to take with himself and his family if the reward for his risk depends upon the political administration of a Government such as this. Does my hon. friend think that the settler who depends on the recommendation of an officer Who takes the public platform and announces his support of a certain political candidate, does he think that that settler will risk giving his political views ? Do you not think, Mr. Speaker, that when my hon. friend's homestead inspectors become candidates themselves, that terrorism is exercised over the homesteader, and that such conduct instead of promoting settlement promotes discontent, and prevents settlement. Does my hon. friend want to know the facts ? In the recent provincial election at Peace River, the homestead inspector, Mr. Joshua Fletcher, took the platform and spoke on behalf of the Conservative candidate. He is reported by the newspapers of that district, as declaring that this Government at Ottawa had to be supported by votes for the local candidate in the Peace River constituency.

404 ' "

It must be said that this man was appointed by the late Government. I know the man personally. I appointed him myself. My information is that the man took the platform and spoke as he did, because he had to do it in order to hold his position. Did my hon. friend know that his homestead inspector, Mr. Ambroise Grey, was a candidate in the Beaver River constituency in the recent Alberta elections ? He was a defeated candidate, it is true.

Mr. CARVELL:

Did he lose his job ?

Mr. OLIVER:

No, he resigned from his position, we were informed, when he became a candidate, but he has been holding his position ever since, and when I happened to visit that country shortly before the opening of this session, I found my friend, Mr. Ambroise Grey, and another official, Mr. F. Fane, also a lawyer named Mackie and a gentleman called Hoyle, travelling around the country in an automobile-I do not know who is paying for it, but I fancy the country is-to collect evidence to be used in protesting the election of the successful candidate. Consider the position, Mr. Speaker, of the homesteaders in that constituency who may have voted against Mr. Ambroise Grey. He is now a homestead inspector and knows that they voted against him. Are they likely to get fair treatment at the hands of Mr. Grey when they apply for their patents ? I do not think that they will even expect to get it, and I say that the settlement of that section of the country is discouraged to that extent.

My hon. friend was good enough to recall occurrences in the Saskatchewan election. I happened to be in the

province of Saskatchewan at that time, taking some part in that election. At the town of Outlook I was credibly informed that a gentleman named Walker had been appointed homestead inspector there in place of another man who had been dismissed, and that Mr. Walker took the position on the understanding that he was to draw the salary and act as organizer for the Conservative candidate in the constituency during the progress of the election. He did, as a matter of fact, act as organizer, and I was credibly informed that he had addressed a meeting in the same hall that I addressed a meeting in a few nights afterwards. He had loaned his team and rig, or buggy, that the Government supply to homestead inspectors, to the Conservative candidate for the Conservative candidate's use, and

I was told that the Conservative candidate allowed the horses to run away and break the rig. .

Who paid for it?

Mr. OLIVER:

I suppose the Government paid for it. My hon. friend said that during the election in Saskatchewan there were men arrested for their work in that election. I ask him: Was it right or wrong that this man Smythe should be indicted on a charge of intimidation?

Mr. ROCHE:

I have had no proof yet that he was.

Mr. OLIVER:

The case was tried before the court, the magistrate found Smythe guilty and Smythe did not appeal the case. My hon. friend las seen fit to say that some of these men who were arrested in Saskatchewan came from Manitoba.