Hon. J. D. HAZEN (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) moved:

That a Select Committee composed of Messrs. Baker, BClarid, Boyer, Bradbury, Burrell, Hazen, Kyte, Lesperance, McKay, McCraney. Molloy, Murphy, Northrup, Sevigny, Warnoek and Wilson (Wentworth), be appointed to inquire into the prevention of the pollution of navigable waters and to consider all matters relating thereto, with power to send for persons, papers and records, to examine witnesses under oath, and to report from time to time.

He said: Hon. gentlemen will remember that a committee of this character was appointed at the last session of the House. That committee held a number of meetings and made a report to the House recommending that the Government be requested to call during the recess, a convention composed of the members of the committee, of representatives of the different provinces of Canada, of representatives of the International Waterways Commission and of representatives of the Conservation Commission, for the purpose of discussing this matter with a view of seeing what joint action might be taken between the provinces and the Dominion. That convention was called and met in the city of Ottawa on October 30 last. There were present the following representatives: the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Hazen), the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Burrell), the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Bradbury), Chairman of the Committee of the House on the subject, the hon. member for McLeod (Mr. Warnoek), and the hon. member for Brome (Mr. Baker); representing the province of Manitoba-Hon. Mr. Howden, At-

torney General; Prince Edward Island- Hon. Mr. Mathieson, Premier; British Columbia-Hon. William R. Ross, Minister of Lands; Quebec-Dr. E. P. Lachapelle, President of the Provincial Board of Health; Mr R S Lea, member of the Provincial Board of Health, and Dr. E. Elzear Pelletier, Secretary of the Provincial Board of Health; Saskatchewan-Mr. P. Aird Murray, Civil Engineer, and Dr. Maurice M. Seymour, Commissioner of Public Health; New Brunswick-Hon. Mr. Flemming, Premier; International Joint Commission Mr. C. A. Magrath and Mr. H. A. Powell,

K C. * Conservation Commission-Mr. James White and Dr. A. Hodgetts. Mr. Thomas P Owens was appointed secretary of the conference. There were no representatives present, I regret to say, from the provinces of Ontario, Alberta and Nova Scotia.

A good deal of discussion took place with regard to matters of public health in so far as navigable waters are concerned, and with regard to the jurisdiction of the respective provinces and of the federal authorities. It was brought prominently to the attention of the convention that the matter of the pollution of navigable streams constituting international boundaries was being considered by the Internationa Waterways Commission. It was very strongly pointed out that the question of the pollution of navigable waters is, brought down to its final analysis, a matter for international consideration and international agreement. In a great many cases the pollution of navigable waters in Canada is caused by towns 'and villages situated on waterways which form part of the international boundary line, such as the at. Lawrence river, the Detroit river, the waterways of the Great Lakes, the rivers St. John and St. Croix in the province of New Brunswick, land others. In order, therefore, that any regulations which might be passed with a view to preventing the pollution of these streams should be effective, it is necessary that similar legislation should be enacted by both countries, because if legislation were enacted by one country and not by another, while there might be some mitigation of the evil that undoubtedly exists, there would not be any effective means of totally doing away with

the source of trouble.

All these matters were discussed at the convention and the following resolutions adopted:

Moved by Mr. Howden, Manitoba, seconded by Mr. Flemming, New Brunswick:

This conference views with great satisfaction the study now being made, through the medium Of the International Joint Commission, appointed under the treaty between the United States and Canada of the 11th January, 1909, of the subject of the Pollution of International Waterways.

That the secretary be instructed to send a copy of the resolution to the International Joint Commission.

A resolution was also moved by Mr. Pelletier, of Quebec, seconded by Mr. Flemming, commending the valuable services rendered by Mr. Bradbury in relation to the prevention of the pollution of navigable waters and expressing appreciation of the efforts of the Special Committee of the House of Commons in reference to Bill No. 2 of the session of 1912-13. The conference suggested that a similar parliamentary committee should meet this session to continue the investigation. Another resolution, moved by Dr. Lachapelle, of Quebec, seconded by Mr. Seymour, of Saskatchewan, reads as follows:

Whereas in the past questions affecting sanitation and public health, to be dealt with concurrently by the federal and provincial authorities, amongst others the question ot protecting water courses from pollution, have suffered from the non-existence of a federal

department of health ; .

This conference considers that the erection of a federal department of public health might well receive the early attention of the Dominion Government.

This conference believes that such a department would be of assistance in solving interprovincial problems as to the protection of public health.

Addresses were made by different gentlemen present, including specialists on the subject representing the provincial health authorities of the province of Quebec, one of the resolutions, as I have said, recommended the appointment of a committee at the present session to inquire into the pollution of navigable streams, and it" is in line with that recommendation that the appointment of this committee is now asked for. Until the report of the International Waterways Commission, which is investigating the pollution of international waters, is received, probably no progress can be made. But when we get that report, with the evidence of all the experts, it is hoped that with the co-operation of this committee and of this Parliament some practical solution may be worked out to remedy what is undoubtedly a very groat evil and a great menace to the public health of Canada to-day. Some of the rivers and water courses of this country are being used simply as receptacles for

sewage, and their efficacy for domestic pur- ends with that condemnation and that poses is to a large extent being destroyed, nothing is being done to remedy the evil two Bills in regard to this matter are complained about. I could name some now before Parliament. The one intro- cities in other provinces in the same posi-duced by Senator Belcourt has passed the tion. It is a difficult question to deal with, Upper Chamber, and has been sent down I admit; but what are governments for if to this House for consideration. I think not to deal with difficult questions? This that Bill should be referred to this com- is not a matter affecting one party or the mittee for further consideration, and also other; it affects the lives and health of our the Bill introduced by the hon. member for people, and we are not showing a full belkirk (Mr. Bradbury). It is for these appreciation of our responsibility if we

reasons I am moving the resolution asking for the appointment of this committee.

Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM: Does not my hon. friend think there may be a disposition throughout the country to question the usefulness of the House of Commons if pass a Bill already passed bv -he Senate? I know the reverse of that has occurred. Sometimes the action of the Senate has been questioned because it wished to refer to the people themselves a measure passed by this House, and we must be careful not to get the House of Commons in a similar position.

This is a question of more than ordinary importance, and it has been before the public of Canada for a great many years. It will be .admitted that the International Waterways Commission has a very important connection with this subject so far as international streams are concerned, but the International Waterways Commission certainly has nothing to do with a stream like the Ottawa river, for instance. The provinces of Quebec and Ontario and the Dominion-of Canada are the only parties that can^ possibly be interested in the Ottawa river, and with all deference to the minister, it strikes me that this is merely sidestepping the issue. Our newspapers are full of the water question; we should have it at our meals if we dared drink the water; and it strikes me that the Government is not fulfilling its duty in postponing this matter any longer. If there is anything this Government, in conjunction with the Governments of the two provinces, can do, no time should be lost. The evil is here and has been here for years, with very disastrous results so far as this city is concerned.

In dealing with streams wholly in Canadian territory the provinces must take a very important part through their board of health. I recollect that the water supply of various towns in Ontario has been absolutely condemned by the Provincial Board of Health; but it seerris that the matter

allow it to be put off for one year longer, for that is what it amounts to. I think our action would be universally approved if we at once took measures for dealing with this question of the pollution of streams in Canadian territory.

As to the question of pollution of international streams, that is, as my hon. friend says, a matter in which both countries are interested, and it is a very serious matter. Those of us who live on the St. Lawrence river think we have pure water, and, comparatively speaking, we have; but year by year as the population of the towns along its banks increases our water will become polluted. What are we going to do to remedy that? Are we going to sit still till the International Joint Commission does something? The Board of Health of the province of Ontario acts pretty strongly in these matters, and I think we should uphold their hands rather than shrink from our responsibility. There are many towns and incorporated villages in Ontario and other provinces that have no streams like the St. Lawrence running by them. They are under the control of the Board of Health and are taking care of the problem of sewage in a modern way. The longer this matter is delayed, the more expensive it will be to the people of this country, and I think the time has arrived for us to insist that no more sewage pipes be run into these streams. That is the first step. The next step would be for the people to take care of that question in another way just as soon as they could stand the taxation. I think, with all due respect to the hon. Minister of Marine and .Fisheries, we are not taking the proper course in side-stepping this great and important question for one more year; but we ought to take up the Bill which is now before the House and deal with it this year.

Right Hon. R. L. BORDEN (Prime Minister) :

I think that my hon. friend (Mr. Graham) does not give proper credit to his own intelligence, if he understands my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and

Fisheries (Mr. Hazen) as suggesting that the International Joint Commission was to deal with problems which relate only to our own waters. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries was not alluding to the work of the International Joint Commission in that regard at all, but he was alluding to it in connection with the work which is properly within its scope, that is, the investigation of the condition of the international waterways between the two countries. It is only with that, in so far as I am aware, that the International Joint Commission has concerned itself up to the present time, or is likely to concern itself in the future.

The subject is of very great importance, and a committee was appointed at the last .session of Parliament to deal with it. My [DOT]hon. friend seems disposed to be rather captious about the matter. He says that it has already been delayed too long. I am not aware of any steps that were taken during the fifteen years of the Administration which preceded this.

Oh, oh.

Mr. BORDEN:

These gentlemen are so sensitive that if one refers to their record it disturbs them. They seem to be under the impression that the slightest reference to their record is an insult. I am not disposed to deny that, if my hon. friends look upon it in that way. I remember that the Bill now before the House, which has come from the Senate, was brought down under the late Administration, and that not the slightest notice was taken of it. My hon. friend was not so keen upon the responsibility of the Government then as he is now. He is capable of playing the petty part of trying to make a little political capital out of the matter if he can.

Mr. GRAHAM:

No, no.

Mr. BORDEN:

As far as I understood his observations, they could have no other purpose or object. The subject of this motion is one that should come properly under the consideration of a committee of this House, and I would be glad indeed if a committee of the Senate were added for the purpose of making a proper investigation, As my hon. friend has said', such conditions have been allowed to prevail in this country for so many years that it is yery difficult t-o reverse them by sudden legislation. That is no reason, however, why we should not proceed, after careful investigation and inquiry, to deal with

this subject in a reasonable and effective

I appreciate as much as my hon. friend does the very unfortunate condition that has prevailed in the city of Ottawa for several years, and I very greatly regret that during the past three or four years, while these conditions have prevailed, so little progress has been made by those who are responsible for the civic government in bringing about better conditions. In saying that I am making my observations entirely in a general sense, and they have application merely to the citizens as a whole, because I know there are a great many earnest persons, citizens of Ottawa, who have laboured most indefatigably and earnestly, and, I hope, effectively, to bring about a better condition in this city. The Government of Canada is very actively concerned in what has been done in Ottawa in that regard, because the large number of civil servants who reside in this city, the people who continually come here in connection with public business, and all the members of both Houses of Parliament who reside here during a portion of the year, are subjected to very great danger of infection unless we have a proper water supply. Indeed, it is conceivable that the whole public business of the country might be brought to a standstill by the enforcement of quarantine regulations; and I do express the hope now, in which I know that the members of this House will concur, that something will be done by the city of Ottawa in the immediate future to provide a suitable remedy for these conditions and to bring into the city an abundant supply of absolutely pure water.

As is disclosed by documents which have already been laid on the table of the House, the Government has pledged itself to submit to Parliament proposals for assisting in that purpose if it is absolutely assured that the supply of water will be both abundant and pure, because both of these are first considerations. As far as the appointment of a committee is concerned, it seems to be an absolutely correct motion at the present time. Indeed, the labours of the committee at the last session of Parliament, and the report which they made to the House, disclose, to my mind, the necessity of a full investigation and inquiry before we can deal effectively with this matter. I believe the thanks of the House and the country are due to those members of Parliament-Senator Belcourt in the Senate,' and my hon. friend from Selkirk (Mr. Bradbury) and others in this

House-who have undertaken at all times to impress the importance of this question *upon the attention of the House.

Hon. CHARLES MURPHY (Russell):

It was not my intention to intervene in this discussion; but I think it is due to the members of this House that I should clear up a misapprehension which seems to exist with reference to the cause of the typhoid epidemics that have occurred in Ottawa during the last few years. The discussion here this afternoon, as far as I could gauge it, has proceeded on the assumption that the epidemics were due to the pollution of the Ottawa river. As has been pointed out several times at investigations under oath these epidemics would have happened if the Ottawa river were as pure as distilled water could possibly be. These epidemics were not due to the water of the Ottawa river, but were caused by sewage being put into the water pipes supplying the city of Ottawa at the corner of Lloyd and Ottawa streets. The people were supplied with sewage instead of water, and I do not think that the condition of the water of the Ottawa river had anything to do with these epidemics.

I understood the remarks of my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Hazen) exactly in the same sense as they were understood by my hon. friend from Renfrew (Mr. Graham), that is to say-if I am in error I want to be corrected-that while the Minister of Marine and Fisheries seemed to put great stress upon having a report as to the Ottawa river from the Waterways Commission, he believed that the first step to be taken was to preserve the purity of the St, Lawrence river, and that after this had been secured we could deal with our own water. I differ altogether with him in this respect. That was the reason why my hon. friend was justified in charging the Government with side-stepping this question. The hon. minister will not, after consideration, argue seriously that we must wait until action has been taken in regard to the St. Lawrence river, and that if no action is taken to get pure water in the St. Lawrence river, we shall not be able to take any action here. On the contrary, we can and we ought to take action immediately with regard to any of the waters over which we have jurisdiction.

Mr. BORDEN:

I was not paying close

attention to what my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries said, but when

the hon. member for South Renfrew (Mr. Graham) was speaking, I asked my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries whether he intended any such suggestion as that, and he told me that he certainlv did not. *

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

Well, I will

accept the correction.

Mr. BORDEN:

He (Mr. Hazen) is here now, and he can speak for himself.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

Exactly. I was going to say in his presence what I said a moment ago. Am I right in understanding the Minister of Marine to have said that the first thing to be done was to regulate international streams? What about the Ottawa river?

Mr. HAZEN:

I said that the question

in its widest aspect could not be dealt with except by international agreement, but 1 made no reference to the Ottawa river.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

The first

stream to demand our attention is not the river St. Lawrence, because the volume of water in that river is so enormous that up to the present it has not become polluted, notwithstanding the sewage from municipalities which is poured into it; our first attention should be given to the waters over which we have jurisdiction, and one of these is the Ottawa river, from which we obtain our water supply here. The Bill of the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Bradbury) could, I think, be voted upon right away, and the Bill of Senator Belcourt is almost similar in its terms. Is there a man in this House, including the Minister of Marine, who is of the opinion that in this age we should allow sewage to be put into any stream? The time has come for us to take action. We do not require any more investigation; we should have legislation at once to force all municipalities to dispose of their sewage in some other way. The only thing for us to consider now is whether or not we should give the municipalities time to get rid of their present systems; but I protest against any further deferring of prohibition against municipalities allowing their sewage to go into the rivers. I hold up both hands in support of the Bill of the hon. member for Selkirk. Why should we have a committee at this late date, to inquire whether we should allow pollution or not? I, of course, consent to the motion that Senator Beloourt's Bill and Mr. Bradbury's Bill should be referred to this committee, but I consent to it in the strong hope that the committee will report favour-

ably oil the passage of such a law. We have abundance.of water in the Ottawa river for the supply of the city. Let the Ottawa river be no longer polluted by sewage, and we shall have the best water in the world; there is none better. That is the whole question. I shall not allude to the usual refrain of hon. gentlemen opposite, that when we were in power we were not diligent in this matter, nor do I believe that that, if true, would be justification for the inaction of the present Government. I know that we had a hard battle to fight against the lumbermen of Ottawa, who insisted upon polluting the waters of the river with the refuse from their mills, and it took us years to get the mill-owners to correct their practice in that respect, but in the end we succeeded. If the late Government was not diligent, is that a reason why the present Government should be so dilatory. I am sick and tired, hearing these comparisons between the present Government and the late Government. So much was expected from this Government, so strong was the hope that the new broom would sweep clean, that the people of the country are disappointed at their constant excuse for dilatoriness, which every time is summed up by the retort: We are just as bad as you are. The elections will come by and by, and we will know what impression that excuse will make on the people of Canada.

Mr. G. H. BRADBURY (Selkirk):

I did not expect this question to come up to-day, but I feel that I should say a word or two about it. I have had a Bill on the Order Paper since the House opened, and I expected before this to have had opportunity to present it for a second reading. However, I heartily approve of the motion of the Minister of Marine to refer the Bill to a committee, although I regret that the motion was not made six or eight weeks ago.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

Hear, hear;

see how dilatory they are over there.

Mr. BRADBURY:

This question is of

great importance to the people of the country; it is a question the solution of which affects the health and the lives of our people, and which ought to be dealt with in the most expeditious manner possible. There is no doubt that our streams are every day being polluted, and the committee appointed last year took a great deal of evidence from the best experts in Canada, who all agreed that some legislation ought to be passed by the federal Parliament to prevent this frightful nuisance. It was decided by that committee,

that a conference of the representatives of all the provinces should be convened, and last September that conference, attended by some of the premiers of the provinces, by the representatives of the boards of health, and by scientists and experts generally, met in Ottawa, and decided that the matter should be again brought before the House of Commons, and the committee of last year reappointed to take further evidence. I believe that decision of the conference was a wise one. But at this late period of the session, I do not know that we can hope to be very successful in getting evidence to warrant us in bringing down legislation this year. I had hoped that the matter would have come up earlier, and that we could have decided upon a Bill prohibiting this pernicious practice of polluting streams.

With regard to the water supply situation in the city of Ottawa, I think that the conditions in this city are a disgrace to civilization. To think that in a great city, the capital of the Dominion, the taxpayers should have to pay a heavy tax to the city for pure water, and then either have to buy their water for drinking purposes or carry it from wells to their homes, is an absurdity, inconsistent with modern ideas. I believe it has become quite evident that the officials of this city who are responsible for providing pure water for the inhabitants, are utterly incapable of doing so. This is the capital of the Dominion; we have a large number of representatives coming to Parliament for six or seven months in the year; we have thousands coming here to transact business with the Government and the departments; we have thousands of employees in the Civil Service, and I do not know that under the circumstances it would not be wise for the Government to undertake to provide pure water for this city. I believe the people of Canada would justify the Government if they took hold of this matter, and took it out of the hands of the city. I do not know just how it could be done.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

Pass your Bill.

Mr. BRADBURY:

There is what appears to be a debatable question regarding obtaining the supply from the Ottawa river or from Thirty-One Mile lake. Personally I believe we have a body of absolutely pure water in Thirty-One Mile lake, which can be availed of for our supply, and knowing what has already taken place from the use of the Ottawa river water, I think we

should provide for taking our water from an unquestionably pure source. My hon. friend from Russell (Mr. Murphy) has stated that the Ottawa river water was polluted by the sewage from the city itself, and I believe he has ground for that charge. But I am not prepared to believe, that even with all the sewage from the city eliminated from the Ottawa river, that water is fit for the citizens to drink.

I do not believe that it is. In face of the evidence that we have, I believe that, if we adopt the Ottawa river water, a large quantity of chemicals will have to be used to purify the water. We are told that there is an opportunity of getting absolutely pure water for which no chemicals will be required. If the people of this country or of any country are to be healthy, they must have pure water to drink. I consider that the Government will be perfectly justified in taking hold of this matter and, if possible, in bringing pure water into this city in its own defence and in defence of the representatives who come here year after year. Only a short time ago it was suggested that this Parliament should adjourn until pure water was provided by the city of Ottawa. It is almost a duty devolving upon the Government of Canada to see that pure water is provided not only for their employees, hut for the members and others who are forced to. come to Ottawa to transact business. This is an important question, and one which I know has the sympathy of this House, and I am satisfied has the sympathy of the country. The Government that will legislate in a practical way to prevent the pollution of our streams will receive the commendation of the people of Canada.