Mr. W. T. WHITE:

I thought you were referring to the Prime Minister.

Mr. CARVELL:

I was referring to Z. A. Lash, something stronger than the Prime Minister. I am afraid that the mis-statements made by his friend Zebulon A. Lash a year ago put my hon. friend the Finance Minister in the position in which he finds himself to-day. I only hope that the information which he will give us on this occasion will come from a better and less interested source than did the information which he received a year ago from Mr. Z. A. Lash.

Another hon. gentleman from whom we have not heard, and who should know something of this matter, is the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Hazen). I think the hon. minister ought to get far enough away from his old friends the Canadian Pacific Railway Company in order to give some reason for the faith which is in him in supporting these resolutions. I say that it is most remarkable that, with the exception of the remarks of the gentleman to whom I have referred, we have . not been favoured with any statement from members of the Government who are on the inside and who should know something about this matter. I do think that we are entitled to more information along these lines than we have received up to the present time.

I feel that it is unnecessary that I should say anything uncomplimentary about Mackenzie and MJann or about any other person in discussing these resolutions; nor do I (think it is necessary that members of the Government should spend so much time in eulogizing these two wizards of finance, as they are called; these two empire builders; these two men who have devoted their lives to making Canada the great

and prosperous country that it is to-day. This is purely a financial transaction; it is purely a question of whether, in the first place, we should give aid to the Canadian Northern system, and whether, in the second place, the Government are proposing to give this aid in .a manner which will be in the (best interests of the people of the country as a whole. Therefore, as I have said, I am here neither to praise nor to condemn Mackenzie and Mann; I am here to discuss, very briefly indeed, the financial position in which I find this company placed to-day, and in which I find the Government placed by reason of their yielding to the solicitations of these two railway magnates. I know that we cannot find in Canada another instance of where two men have accomplished such wonders in the financial world as have Mackenzie and Mann in connection with the Canadian Northern railway system; in fact, I doubt very much whether the case has a parallel on the American continent. Just think of what they have accomplished. Without putting in one 4 p.m. dollar of private funds; without [DOT] becoming responsible for the payment of one dollar; without doing anything but beg from everybody whom they met, these two gentlemen have succeeded in getting from the people of Canada, from the Dominion and from the provinces, over $200,000,000 either of money or of money's worth. I say that this is something unique in the history of Canada, and, I believe, in the history of the American continent: over $200,000,000 in hard cash begged from the people of Canada, who were cajoled, and, in some cases, I am afraid, almost threatened into giving this money in order to enrich these gentlemen and make them a pair of millionaires. When hon. gentlemen opposite talk about Mackenzie and Mann being patriots, I am almost compelled to say something unpleasant. My hon. friend the Solicitor General smiles; it is no wonder, because I am afraid that the intercourse which my hon. friend hag* had with these gentlemen and their solicitor during the last two months has given him an insight into the real condition of affairs which makes him smile in his sleep when Mackenzie and Mann appear to him in his dreams. When attorneys and counsel come into court with a case they take it as it is presented to them and make the best they can of it, and I think that my hon. friend the Solicitor General, who always makes the

best of a bad case, bias done the beat he could in this case. iBut my hon. friend knows that so much of this story has not been told that he cannot help smiling when the names of Mackenzie and Mann are mentioned to him.

These men have been referred to as patriots: these men who have almost buccaneered $200,000,000 out of the people of Canada. I went over the matter very hurriedly a few moments ago and, according to the figures which the Government have given us, we find that Mackenzie and Mann have obtained, in the first place, over $25,000,000 in cash and, in the second place, lands in the Northwest which they admit are worth $30,000,000. Further, they have obtained the guarantee of bonds and securities by the Dominion Government to the extent of $58,000,000 and by the provincial Governments to the extent of $76,000,000. This makes a total of $180,000,000 in round figures. In addition to that, they have lands in the provinces of Quebec, Ontario and Nova Scotia, roads which have been built and purchased by them-but all of which have been (built practically by public money-all over the eastern portion of Canada and, to some extent, in the province of Manitoba; roads built in the province of Quebec and in the province of Nova Scotia. Adding the sum total of the value of these properties you find that at least $220,000,000 or $225,000,000 of actual money or moneys worth has been given to these two gentlemen for the purpose of building this railway system. They conceived, perhaps, one of the boldest schemes which was ever thought of in America. Two men, who at the time had, I imagine, very few dollars of private funds, but who did not put in a dollar, no matter what they may have had, conceived the idea of building a great transcontinental railway. We are told that we should consider them as patriots because they 'had imagination sufficient to induce them to go into this great scheme. I do not suppose that there is a member in this House who has not had sufficient imagination during his lifetime to induce him to go into some financial scheme or other. Some of them, I presume, have turned out satisfactorily; many of them have turned out unsatisfactorily. I know that I have gone into financial schemes during my lifetime; many of them, I am sorry to say, turned out unsatisfactorily, but probably the schemes that other members and I myself have entered into are just as important so far as our communities are concerned as is

the Mackenzie and Mann scheme so far as Canada is concerned. But when our schemes go wrong, do we go to our municipal authorities, to our city and town councils or to our provincial Governments and say: We conceived the idea of establishing a great institution of some' kind, but the thing 'has gone wrong; we are up against the wall. It is true that we have spent not a dollar of our own money; it is true that we 'have spent all the money that we have been able to borrow; it is true that we have spent all the money which the people have given us, that we cannot borrow more and that nobody will give us any more money. We cannot go on with this work; therefore it is up to you to finance it for us. Would our people call us patriots, call us magnates, if we did this, or would they call us idiots? I have been all through the mill ; I have had financial transactions that have gone bad but I did not find any government or corporation or municipality coming to my aid and putting up thousands of dollars for me. They say: If you are fool enough

to undertake a thing that you cannot carry through, put up your own money, put up your own securities; if you cannot pay your way, go to the wall, and let somebody else take it up. That is what you find in the ordinary affairs of life, that is what probably one-half the members of this House have found in ordinary business experience. The hon. member for Lambton says that these gentlemen are patriots and are absolutely bankrupt. The words he used were: They have gone to the extent

of their credit, then he says there is no other source to which they can go for money except the Dominion Government; and because these men are bankrupt, and because there is no other source to which they can go, and because they come here and ask us to grant them an enormous sum of money, it is our duty to grant it. This is the logic, and I think the hon. member for Lambton pretty nearly stated the logic of all the members on the Government side of this House who have supported this measure up to the present time. Perhaps you might say that it would be only fair that I should state what my own views are on this matter, and for fear that ony one should claim that I am not frank in discussing it, I wish to admit that this matter has assumed such gigantic proportions that I do not see how the Government of Canada can do otherwise than do something in order to prevent the

enterprise going entirely to smash, because that would be a very serious matter for Canada. But when I say that, I am not agreeing in any manner whatever to the scheme proposed by the Government in order to work out a solution to this very unfortunate condition of affairs.

I now want to discuss very briefly the scheme proposed by the Government. A large number of documents have been laid upon the table of the House. Some of these have been printed in a blue-book and some have not. I do not think that I have spent more real time in trying to understand any subject that has come before the House since I have been in Parliament than I have spent on this Canadian Northern scheme; and I am compelled to admit, although it may not be very much of a compliment to my ability, that I have rarely attempted to speak upon a matter about which I could so little understand many things connected with it. If there is any more light to be thrown upon these things, it is the duty of the Government to give us more explicit explanation than we have received. In so far as I have .been able to go, and I have read over every word in the blue book and every document laid upon the table of the House, I find that there are present liabilities upon this road amounting to about $42,540,000, not for the purpose of building the road, not to extend the road, not to complete the system, but to pay their debts and put them in a position where it will be safe to run engines and cars over the road. That is the position as I find it, if I am right in my figures. I have made up these figures largely from sessional paper N'o. 269 I, a portion of Which has been printed and a portion not. I find that the liabilities at present outstanding and the immediate necessities are as follows:

British Columbia, loans and debts due, $10,141,780; Canadian Northern Railway lines, (i.e. the lines from Port Arthur to the Yellow-head Pass), $8,348,290 ; Canadian Northern Ontario lines, debts due, $4,727,698 ; Toronto and Ottawa lines, debts due, $1,878,726 ; Equipment trust, debts due, $7,441,086 ; betterments on all lines, $10,000,000 ; making a total of $42,540,580.

I was a little in doubt whether I was justified in putting in the $10,000,000 of betterments as a portion of the money to be taken out of the $45,000,000 of guarantee, but if the hon. member for Lambton knows what he is talking about, and I am satisfied he does, then I -was right in putting in that $10,000,000 because he makes the positive statement that:

I understand Messrs. Mackenzie and Mann intend taking $10,000,000 out of this grant to pay for betterments.

Therefore I have the story complete so far as that is concerned. The sum of $42,540,580 is to be taken out of this money to pay the debts and to pay for betterments in order to make the road safe to operate. My friend the Solicitor General shakes his -head. I tell him I have not given a statement that I cannot prove by his documents. Every figure I have given I have worked out from these documents. My hon. friend knows that they are there, he can take the documents and verify them. At page 13 of this file he will find a statement regarding the British Columbia road, and he will find that they owe there, of debts, $10,141,170. That is right, is it not.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I have no reason to

doubt it.

Mr. -CARVELL: If he will go over to page 19 of this file, he will find that there are $8,348,290 due in loans, sub-contractors' drawbacks, and accounts for material on the western lines. At page 20 he will find that on the Canadian Northern lines there are due $4,727,698 for loans, sub-contractors' drawbacks, and accounts for material. On the same page he will find for the Toronto and Ottawa road, loans, sub-contractors' drawbacks, and accounts for material, $1,878,728. On page 24, he will find that in the equipment statement the amount required to pay outstanding accounts and principle due on equipment trust securities in the -hands of the public for the year 1913-14 is $7,441,096 And then he has the confession of my hon. Mend from Lambton, if it foe correct, that the whole of these betterments will be paid out of this amount. Add these together you have $42,045,580.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I am sorry I was not present when the hon. member for Lambton spoke, but I scarcely think he was correct in stating that the whole of the $10,000,000 for betterments will come out of the $45,-000,000._ The whole of the $10,000,000 for betterments, and the items read by my hon. friend, will come out of the proceeds of the $45,000,000, plus the proceeds of the $58,000,000; that is to say, out of the whole $100,000,000.

Mr. CARVELL:

But there is a lot of

other things to come out of the proceeds of the $58,000,000. No man knows better than the Solicitor General that you have got to spend the $10,000,000 for betterments or you cannot run your trains over these lines in the West. No man know that better than

my hon. friend. He knows that there are hundreds of miles

yes, thousands-that have not a shovelful of ballast on them except what is called dirt ballast; that it will take millions of dollars to replace the wooden trestles, and to fill up the fills; that the roads are in such a bad condition that it is not safe to run a train at more than 10 miles an hour and the Railway Commission has been compelled to reduce the speed of the trains. And yet my hon. friend tells me that they do not intend to take this $10,000,000 for betterments.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Out of the $100,000,000,

yes.

Mr. CARVELL:

They will take it out of the only money available, and the only money available is the proceeds from the $45,000,000 worth of bonds.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

That is no more available than any other proceeds.

Mr. CARVELL:

My hon. friend knows

better. He knows that a Government guarantee makes the bonds saleable, and that they are going to be sold. These 4 per cent, bonds will not sell at par, perhaps, even with the Government guarantee. I doubt if they will bring very much more than $42,500,000. Some gentlemen have said we are going to have a completed system; we are going to have a wonderful transcontinental extending from the Atlantic to the Pacific which will do transcontinental business. But I think I have proved from this document that it will take all the $45,000,000 bond issue to pay the debts owing and to put the road in running shape. That is the difficulty. Mackenzie and Mann or Lash has put it all over somebody; I do not want to say the Solicitor General because I d-o not hold him responsible more than the rest of them. The fact remains that this $45,000,000, with the other available assets, will not complete the road or anywhere near it. And next year or two years- from now, for they will probably wait till after the next elections, they will come back here and tell us the tale they told us last year, that they are telling us now, and that they will probably tell us on two or three future occasions: for God's sake give us some money [DOT]that we may complete the road; if you give it to us this time we will never come back any more. But they will come back just the same.

Mr. GRAHAM:

This Government does

not expect to have to -meet them again.

Mr. CAEVELL:

No, the Government

expects the burden will fall on other shoulders, and acts on the principle that ' sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.' They relieve present necessities, and then hand the matter over to their successors.

Another thing is revealed by this document-and I do not think my hon. friend will disagree with me in this, because I am quoting the figures practically as they are given on page 10 of the blue-book, which seems to be the financial statement of the company. I figure that to complete the road will take as follows:

British Columbia lines $111,505,712

Canadian Northern lines 6,694,606

Ontario lines-main line. $11,387,324 Toronto-Ottawa line . . 258,143

11,645,467

According to the estimate that Mackenzie and Mann have given to the Solicitor General, it will take almost $31,000,000 or $32,000,000 to complete the road, not including all the branch lines, as stated by my hon. friend from Lambton-not by any means. That amount will only cover the main line and the branch lines at present under construction. To that I have added what I think I am perfectly justified in adding, $20,000,000 for equipment, making a total of $51,845,785 required, according to the admission of the Government themselves, to complete the road at present under construction. Does any man on this side of the House or the other, or in the country, who knows anything about railway construction, believe that the estimate given by Mackenzie and Mann is correct?

I do not say that offensively. Possibly they may believe it is a reasonably correct estimate, but the history of every railway in Canada and of practically every other great work shows that nothing in this world is so unreliable as engineers' estimates. It is almost a disease with these gentlemen. I never could understand why it is that while they are never right, they always err on the one side; they always estimate these works to cost less than they actually do cost, and when these gentlemen tell you it will take $50,000,000 to $51,000,000 to complete the road, you will be almost safe in adding fifty per cent to that. Take the Grand Trunk Pacific for instance. Estimate after estimate was made and exceeded, and the same with the Canadian Pacific railway, the Intercolonial railway, and every other great work in Canada. Take the Welland canal. I venture to say that 247

Mr. EMMERSON:

And the Soulanges

canal.

Mr. CAEVELL:

Yes. I tell my hon.

friends that $52,000,000 will not complete this work. And besides that there are thousands of miles of branch lines to be constructed, which aire not commenced at the present time. If the people demand them, they must be built, and this Government must ibuild them, as I will try to show. The moment this Government becomes a partner in this enterprise-the only partner who has any money-no matter what improvements, extensions, or betterments are required, the partner with the money must furnish them because you cannot get blood out of a stone nor money out of a partner that has not any. To my mind, that is one of the greatest objections I have to the whole scheme.

In the blue-book I find a sort of a summary of my figures with certain additions. It shows that for debts due and betterments, $42,540,580 is required; amounts necessary to complete lines under construction, $51,845,785; floating liability, $10,408,128; loans secured by pledged securities, as I figure it out, $15,423,170, but against that there are securities as collateral; loans due to banks, $20,703,865, there being collateral -securities against these too. These total up to $140,921,528 of debts due, including certain debts which are covered to some extent by securities, and amount required to complete. But you have the enormous sum of $141,000,000 of debts due by this concern; and they are asking this Government to step into the breach and become the junior partner. We are asked to put ourselves in the position where, no matter what happens this amount must be paid by the people of Canada. In order to place the matter fairly before the House, I want to state that there are securities held against the two last amounts.

Mr. BUENHAM:

Is the hon. gentleman in favour of granting these people anything at all ?

Mr. CAEVELL:

To put it in a very terse way, I am not at all in favour of granting Mackenzie and Mann anything at all. I am in favour of keeping the Canadian Northern Railway system as a going con-

Mr. BUKNHAM:

I do, because your statement contradicts your leader.