Mr. BORDEN moved:

That the recommendation of His Honour the Speaker as to the appointment of Mr. J. A. D'Astous, as a reviser of translation, and Mr. Henri Trudel,' as translator, on the Debates staff of the House, presented to the House on the 6th inst., be concurred in.

Mr. LEMIEUX:

Before this motion is

adopted I wish to reiterate the protest I made last night, ot early this morning, not against Mr. Trudel or Mr. D'Astous, but against the mode of procedure. I claim that the appointments ought to he on merit, and ought to be made by the 3321

Debates Committee. And while this motion may be adopted I wish to enter my protest against the mode of the -selection of the candidates.

Mr. SPEAKER:

As I understand it, these appointments must lbe made according to the Civil -Service Act in the usual way, as we are doing now. ISince that A-ct came into force it is not under the control of any committee of the House to make such appointments.

Mr. LEMIEUX:

The examination -and

selection of the candidate should have been made by the Debates Committee in this case, but that committee has been completely ignored; therefore we have poor translation.

Mr. BORDEN:

I have no personal knowledge of the circumstances attending the appointments of these -gentlemen, but 1 understand they have been made in accordance with the provisions of the Civil -Service Act. If theTe is any objection based on the view that the provisions of that Act have not been complied with, that would be good ground for it. The Civil Service A-ct does not give power of appointment to the Debates Committee. The appointment, of employees of the Senate and th-e House of Commons has to be made under the Act. The Act was amended in that respect, I think, by the late Administration. .

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

The report which has been placed before th-e House is in these -terms:

I have the honour to report that provision having been made for the appointment of a reviser of translation of the Debates translation staff of the House and of an additional translator on the same staff, and the Civil Service Commission having held an examination of persons applying for qualifying certificates for such positions. M. J. A. D'Astous and M. Henri Trudel have been presented with the required certificates from the commission. The work attached to these positions is of an exceptional character and the certificates are based upon that fact and the sum of two hundred dollars each is added to the initial salary of these officials, who are to be graded in subdivision A of the second division as provided by the organization of this - branch of the service of the House. [DOT]

I must take exception to this report. The work which is done by -the gentlemen who are to be appointed is not of a special character. It is the work of translating the debates of this House, a work which

has been going on for the last twenty-years. There is nothing special in that; it is work o,f an ordinary character. The initial salary, which, I understand- because I am not familiar with the Civil Service Act-is paid in subdivision A of ' the second division, is $1,600. These gentlemen are, upon entering, to get $1,800. This is a distinct discrimination against those longer in the service. One of the former appointees wias employed nnder exactly similar circumstances, and came on at $1,600 a year; and there can be no reason at all why this discrimination should be made. It it is intended that these gentlemen should receive $1,800 it is not fair to the others that they should not receive the same and the consequential annual increase of salaries as well. Neither is it fair that these gentlemen should be placed at once on the same basis. If they receive the benefit of a larger salary the same privilege should be allowed to those already in the service.

Mr. BORDEN:

Occasionally there has

been in the House some criticism of the manner in which the translation is conducted, not so much perhaps as regards the debates as with regard to the official records of the House. It is desirable that this work should ;be well done, and it appears that it is difficult, if not impossible, to get men to undertake the work for a smaller remuneration. As a matter of fact, I think there is no one on the staff who enjoys a salary of less than $1,800, and I am informed that the salaries range from $1,800 to $2,650; and the two gentlemen now to be appointed, one a reviser of translation, and the other an additional translator, will be called upon to perform exactly the same work as is performed by the other members of the staff. We have the report of the proper officer of the House that the work attached to these positions is of an exceptional character, and under the circumstances it does not seem to me that there is any legitimate ground for objection.

Mr. LEMIEUX:

My objection is not so much against the amount to be paid to the new translators as it is against the mode of their appointment. A gentleman who is quite new in translation work *is appointed chief, whereas there are many persons on the staff who deserve that appointment by right of seniority. Although translation work is not of an exceptional character, yet, in my judgment, it is quite complex; we have only to look at the French 'Han-

sard' to see how difficult it is to translate English into French. What I complain of is that an outside influence seems to be exerted and that appointments are made which, in the judgment of those who happen to know a little about French translation, should not be made.

Mr. BORDEN moved:

That the recommendation of His Honour the Speaker as to the appointment of Messrs. Frangois Armand Terrault and Joseph Wilfrid Barii, as translators on the blue-book staff of the House, be concurred in.

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

There can be no objection to this motion and to accepting the report that has been made, but this shows the force of the objection which I made with regard to the other appointments. In one case two gentlemen who are to be translators are appointed at the salaries provided by the statute, and in the other case the terms of the law which provide that the minimum salary shall be $1,600 are directly set aside and an additional amount of $200 given. It seems to me that there can be no other opinion than that this must be done simply through outside influence. Why should a man who is a translator on one staff be better paid than a man who is a translator on the other staff? The work of translating ' Hansard' is precisely the same as the work of translating the blue-books and I do not think that two employees should he paid $200 a year more than the law allows them while the others are regularly appointed under the law.

Mr. SPEAKER:

To the assertion that

somehow outside influence is being exercised I give an emphatic denial; the matter has been arranged solely between the Civil Service Commission and myself. With regard to the two men who receive $200 more than the minimum, this was due to the fact that one of the men has had long experience in newspaper work and is regarded as an exceptionally good man to act as revisor of translation. The weak feature of the work appeared to be that the translations were being sent to the Bureau without revision, and a suitable man was required as revisor. This man was temporarily put on the staff, and in view of his long experience in that line and of the assurance that he is exceptionally clever, I advised that he be appointed

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

I do not doubt the qualifications of these men, nor am I jealous of the salary which they are receiving, but the law provides that men who go into that class, whether better or less qualified, shall get a certain minimum salary. That is the law, and the law should be observed. It cannot be conceived that the other men in the service will accept this as fair; there is no reason why the law should be followed in the one case and not in the other.

Mr. SPEAKER:

There is a provision in the Civil Service Act to the effect that where the man to be appointed is to do work of a special or technical character, the amount of the salary may be increased up to $500 above the minimum. As the man who previously occupied the position of chief received $2,100, it seemed to me that as this man had been doing the work for a long time and had been giving evidences of the highest qualifications, it was at least reasonable to recommend an increase of $200 instead of $500. No person on the staff receives a lower salary than $1,800; the salaries range from $1,800 to $2,600 or $2,750.

Mr. LEM1EUX: I cannot let pass, the

*opinion expressed by Your Honour with regard to the qualifications of Mr. Lasalle as compared with the qualifications of Mr. Trudel. I say most emphatically that Mr. Lasalle is one of the ablest men on the translation staff. Beside,, by right of seniority, he ought to have been appointed chief officer. Your Honour says that Mr. Trudel is much younger, and that he is qualified; with that I fully concur. Your Honour adds that Mr. Lasalle is disabled. It is true that he has suffered from rheumatism owing to the strain of writing continuously for thirty years, but if we were to give promotions over senior officers for similar reasons in other cases, what consequences would follow? Take the editorial staff of a paper.

A young man of twenty may come in as a reporter. He is young and physically very healthy and so on, and according to the opinion of your honour he would immediately take the place of the old editor who had been writing the leader i and editorials because, forsooth, the editor might be disabled. The translation work on the ' Hansard ' as well as in a newpaper office is done not only with the hands but with the brain, and for that reason I claim that Mr. Lasalle and many others with their experience are better equipped .for this transcript work than any new young man who might be appointed to the staff.

Mr. BORDEN:

The Civil Service Act

makes express provision for the slight increase of salary alluded to. Section 33 of the Civil Service Act declares, in the first place, that every person appointed to a particular class must be appointed at the minimum of that class. Each class has a range of about $600. But it also provides that if the work is of an exceptional character, and if the Civil Service Commissioner certifies that the person to be appointed possesses the exceptional qualities alluded to, then he may be appointed at a higher salary than the minimum; but in no case at more than $500 in excess of the minimum. The procedure in this case is not in defiance of the Civil Service Act, but under the Civil .Service Act, and in accordance with its terms, the proper officers of this House and his honour the Speaker having concurred in the recommendation. As far as any

extraneous influence respecting this or any other case is concerned, I never heard of it. I have not the pleasure of knowing either of these gentlemen or anything of their records. I know nothing of the record of any of the members of the translation staff. Mr. Lasalle has been referred to. The Speaker commends him as a very good officer, but he has spoken of his unfortunate disability and the frequent necessity of his absence from duty. Under those circumstances I think it will be agreed

that in the public interest such an appointment could not be made. There is not the slightest desire to discriminate against any one, but to promote the interests of the service in this particular branch.

Mr. CODERRE:

I know the two gentlemen whose names have been mentioned in connection with the office of chief of the translators of the ' Hansard,' Mr. Trudel and Mr. Lasalle. I had an interview with you, Mr. Speaker, in your office about this matter. I gave to your honour the reason why I think that Mr. Lasalle should have been made chief of the translators. Mr. Trudel is a new member of the staff, while Mr. Lasalle is one of the oldest members. I ^annot see why Mr. Trudel should be appointed chief. I am sure that Mr. Trudel, although he is a good and excellent translator, is not as good as Mr. Lasalle, who has had a great deal of experience. He is not disabled at all.

Mr. LEMIEUX:

Hear, hear.