Sir THOMAS WHITE:

It is not compulsory, except to this extent, that the insurance companies are limited to" certain investments, and, of course, the treasury board exercises their discretion as to what securities will be allowed. Of the total I have mentioned there are no less than $53,000,000 of Canadian municipal securities and $16,000,000 of Canadian mortgages.

Mr. PDGSLEY:

I desire to emphasize

the point which I made when this Bill was introduced. It seems to look forward entirely to providing for investment in securities of the Dominion of Canada. We know that insurance companies doing

?402

business in Canada hold a great many debentures of the provinces, cities, and towns throughout the Dominion; and I do not think it is a proper course for this Parliament to say that hereafter a certain percentage must be invested in the securities of Canada, or as is said in section 5, that any deposit of securities, in respect of the business of life insurance,- made prior to the first day of January, 1918, shall be in the securities of Canada. I should think that if this provision is desirable at all, it ought to be extended to the debentures of any province, city, town, or county in the Dominion of Canada. We have control of insurance, as it applies to the Dominion, but I do not think we ought to discriminate against the securities of the different provinces, or of the different municipalities within the Dominion. If' an insurance company offers securities of cities, municipalities, or provinces, which, in the opinion of the Minister of Finance, are equally as good, as in most cases they are, as the debentures or bonds of the Dominion, I think these securities ought to be accepted. We should not take advantage of the power we have in dealing with securities to discriminate in this way against the provinces, or the various municipalities who are doing just as much work in their own way in assisting towards carrying on the war, and in bearing the great burdens which are cast upon the people by reason of present conditions, as this Parliament, or this Government, is doing. I think it is unfair discrimination, and I am surprised that the Minister of Finance should insist upon it.

Mr. CURRIE:

Will the minister be good enough to bring down a return containing a list of the names of the insurance companies, so that we will know when we are taking out insurance whether any insurance companies are controlled by Germans or not.

Sir TflOMAS WHITE: So far as I am aware, the management of all insurance companies doing business in Canada are quite loyal to Canada, and willing to take a share in any loans that may be put upon the market. But it is quite obvious that, if there is an enemy element among the policy holders, or shareholders, that would have an influence upon the management. Under this Bill, all companies doing business in Canada will toe required to invest in the securities of the Dominion, and there can be no objection put forward to

the management of life insurance companies investing in our war loans. My hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley) has some objections to the measure. I would not expect him to concur, because, although I think he is unconscious of it, he has what I might call an opportune tutelary deity which he must appease before any Bill passes.

Mr. PUGSLEY:

Has the minister the shell business in mind?

Sir THOMAS WHITE:

My hon. friend speaks as if we were living in the piping times of peace, instead of being engaged in the greatest war in history. He speaks as if the obligations of the municipalities and provinces were on all fours with those of the Dominion. The burden of this war falls squarely, as it -should, upon the Dominion Government, and I would consider that I -was failing in my duty if I did not take measures, so far as possible, to enable us to meet this burden. It will be an increasing burden as the war goes on. It is heavy now, and it will be heavier 6ix months from now. If the war lasts

till next year, it will be heavier still, because our military establishment will- toe continually increasing. There is nothing in this situation which, in my judgment, calls for any objection, either on the part of the municipalities, or of the provinces, or of any section of the public of Canada. The Act will be in force only for a period of two years. It requires insurance companies to invest only 50 per cent of their net ledger assets in Dominion securities, and it is open to them to invest the remainder in municipal or provincial bonds, if they so desire: so there is no unjust discrimination against municipalities or provinces. It is frankly a war measure, designed to assist the Dominion in financing the period of the war. I do not believe that we yet fully realize the extent of the obligations which may be imposed upon us. Of course the provinces and municipalities have come forward generously in assisting the Red Cross and Canadian Patriotic Funds, and in various other ways they have done nobly. But, when that has been said, the fact remains that the obligations of the Dominion Government are infinitely heavier, as they should be, than those which any other public bodies in the Dominion will have to assume.

Mr. W. F. MACLEAN:

Can the minister say what percentage of the investments of

Canadian companies is in Canadian securities?

Sir THOMAS WHITE:

I am not able to say off hand.

Mr. MACLEAN:

It is not as much as in the case of the American companies. There is no reason why it should not be. This being a war measure, to my mind, it will extend over a much greater period than two years. Also, to my mind, it would be good national policy if it were made a permanent measure.

Mr. PUGSLEY:

I am very sorry that

the Minister of Finance seems to think it necessary, because a member of this House feels it to be ' his duty to criticise some [DOT] measures which the minister introduces, to intimate that he is animated by some uncontrollable desire to oppose Government measures. .

Sir THOMAS WHITE:

Do not take it to heart.

Mr. PUGSLEY:

I do take to heart criticism of this kind, because it, is not fair, and it is not what one would expect from the minister. Of course, I know what is in the inner soul and consciousness of the Minister of Finance. He is filled with a complete and thorough realization of the wrongs which have been committed against the people of Canada and of the Empire in connection with the shell and fuse business. He knows that I have sought 'to expose these wrongs somewhat, and I suppose he feels that, so far as my conduct is concerned, he should judge one thing from the other. When he introduces a measure which commends itself to my judgment, or pursues a course of which we can approve, it will afford me great pleasure to give him my approval.

Does my hon. friend realize the great burdens which Canada will have to bear in connection with the war? My hon. friend speaks as if it were this Government that was bearing the burden. It is the whole people of Canada who are bearing the burden. Who are the people of Canada? The provinces, the cities and towns are representing the people of this entire Dominion. It is the people, certainly, and not this Government who are bearing the burden. It is the people who are borne down by taxes who have to suffer. The different provinces, municipalities, cities and towns are very deeply interested in having as high a market as they possibly can for their securities, and the Minister of Finance is proposing now to direct a blow at these provincial and municipal securities and to place them at a disadvantage, in so far as investment by life insurance companies is concerned, as against the securities of Canada. I think my hon. friend forgets that it is the people of Canada who are bearing these enormous burdens and we ought not to disregard what the various provinces and municipalities are doing in the way of increased taxation and what the people at large are doing in the way of contributions to all those various causes which are made worthy of support, and which are demanding consideration, by reason of the war. Then, a word in regard to the statement of my hon. friend as to companies only being required to invest 50 per cent of the moneys required for the protection of Canadian policyholders in the securities of Canada. I think my hon. friend must be mistaken as to one of the requirements, at all events. That is the one contained in section 5, because that section provides that:

After the fifteenth day of February, one thousand nine hundred and sixteen, any deposit of securities in respect of the business of life insurance required or permitted by the Insurance Act, 1910, to be made prior to the first day of January, one thousand nine hundred and eighteen, with the Receiver General or with a Canadian trustee or trustees appointed under and for the purposes of the said Act by any company licensed under the said Act to transact the business of life insurance In Canada other than a Canadian company shall consist of securities of Canada.

They cannot consist of the securities of any province or any municipality but they must consist wholly of the securities of Canada.

I am not sufficiently familiar with the requirements to know just to what extent that would discriminate against provinces, but I do not think the minister is adopting a right principle when he proposes such a provision as that. I do not think it can be supported on any fair or reasonable ground, either by reason of war conditions or otherwise.

Mr. MeCRANEY: In order to make up this 50 per cent of funds to be invested with the Dominion Government, the companies will have to withdraw moneys from other places in which they are now invested.

Sir THOMAS WHITE:

No.

Mr. MeCRANEY: At any rate, debentures are long term investments, mortgages are five year investments at most, they are falling in from time to time and the result will he that the moneys of companies which

are invested in farm loans will toe turned over under this Act to the Dominion and the burden will fall more particularly on the farmers than on any other class.

Sir THOMAS WHITE:

My hon. friend is mistaken. This only applies to the increase in the net ledger assets. The proceeds of an investment paid off will be available for investment in the same or other securities. It only applies to a 50 per cent increase in the case of Canadian companies and we are dealing with fresh deposits in the case of non-Canadian companies.

Bill reported.

Mr. SINCLAIR:

Will the minister give us some information on that?

Hon. J. D. HAZEN (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):

This is the usual appropriation. The expenditure in 1914-15 was $37,882, and the expenditure for the current year, up to December 31, has been $14,814. The expenditure depends in large measure each year on the number of dogfish visiting the shores in the vicinity of the works, and this varies from year to year. In oases where there is a large number of dogfish obtained, the expenditures are naturally greater as there are more dogfish reduced into the fertilizer that is manufactured. The Canso works this year were opened on September 7 and closed on November 30. During that time 883 tons 120 pounds of dogfish were handled. These produced 110 tons 900 pounds oif scrap and 9,229 gallons of oil. The Clarke's Hanhour works were opened on September 13 and closed November 4. During that time 309 tons and 1,814 pounds of fish scrap and dogfish were handled, yielding 48J tons of scrap and 2,762 gallons of oil. The scrap was sold to farmers in lots not exceeding five tons at $20 per ton f.o.b. works. The cost of maintenance up to December 31, 1915, was as follows :

Canso.

Labour $2,392 98

Haw material, fish 3,532 24

Fuel '[DOT] 675 00

Supplies 52600

Miscellaneous 244 99

7 - [DOT]

Clarke's Harbour.

Labour $2,484 25Raw material

1,515 61Fuel

[DOT] . i .. 683 05Supplies

331 24 . *Miscellaneous

1,658 51

Mr. SINCLAIR:

What was the loss in running these two factories?

Mr. HAZEN:

For 1916, the expenditure up to the present time has been $11,814, and the receipts $6,647.76. Taking a full year, in 1914-15 the expenditure was $37,882, and the receipts $9,693.41.