Mr. McKENZIE:

For a copy of all correspondence between the Post Office Department and the Post Office Inspector, for Nova Scotia in respect to the mail route between Baddeck River, North Branch, and Baddeck Forks, and also of all the correspondence between Dan McPhee, Mail Contractor on said route and the said Post Office Inspector, between the 1st of January and the 20th of May, 1917.

Mr. MACDONALD:

For a copy of all correspondence, letters, cables and other documents exchanged between the Imperial Government or any of its members or officials with the Canadian Government or any of its members or officials, relative to the question of the proposed legislation by the Imperial Parliament to validate certain Acts and proceedings of the Legislature of British Columbia.

Mr. Speaker, I desire to ask leave to move the adjournment of the House under Rule 39, for the purpose of discussing a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the lifting of the rails of the Grand Trunk Pacific railway west of Edmonton, now in progress.

And leave having been granted.

Hon. FRANK OLIVER:

Mr. Speaker, although the subject matter of this motion relates to a part of the country very distant from the Capital, I hope it is not considered to be less important by the people of this part of Canada than it is by those in the part of Canada directly affected. This matter has been brought to my attention by urgent telegrams, one from the Jasper Park collieries, which I read to the House yesterday, and the other from the secretary of the Board of Trade of the town of Edson. Both the Jasper Park colleries and^the town of Edspn are very intimately and directly affected by the action now being taken. It is nearly six months since notice was first given in the newspapers that the Government intended taking this action. That announcement naturally aroused considerable interest, especially amongst the people most directly affected. When the House was convened in January I t.ook the liberty of asking my friend the Minister of Railways (Mr. Cochrane) if such action were contemplated, and was informed by him, if I remember correctly, that it was not. The people then rested easy and were satisfied that no such action was intended. It was a shock to them to learn that it was definitely and deliberately intended that the means of communication upon which they depended, the existence of which alone made it possible for them to be where they were and to do 'business, was about to he t,aken away from them without consideration of any kind whatever, and without information to the public or to the Parliament of this country. While I

do not wish to speak in a controversial tone on this occasion, I am bound to say that I do not think it right that this country of Canada and the people of Canada should be governed in that way. Surely when, for. good or bad reason, it is intended by the Government of the country to absolutely destroy the value of the property owned by citizens of this country, to -take from them the returns upon the time they have employed in their present location, the least that these people and the country at large are entitled to its information as to how, when and why, the reasons for such action in absolute detail. This House of Commons, representing the people of this country, are entitled to that information at the hands of this Government. I am sorry to say that when I brought- the matter to the attention of the hon. minister yesterday in the terms of a most urgent telegram from an enterprise that depends upon its -business for its profits and to which a delay of only one day means a very considerable financial loss, I was given very little satisfaction.. This House and this country are entitled to more than a general statement that this company is -going to be taken care of; it is entitled to know how this company is going to be -taken care of and when it is going to be taken care of. The amount of money that is invested in- this enterprise is sufficiently great to mean -that a large number of citizens are affected, and every man knows that in the case of an industrial enterprise of this character, any action that has the effect of discrediting -that enterprise certainly must have an injurious effect upon the investment of capital in it. So the least the Government can- do when it is taking such action is, by giving the fullest possible -information at the earliest possible date, to minimize the loss by eliminating uncertainty. The Jasper Park colleries is an enterprise which was undertaken at the time of the construction of the Grand Trunk railway. The collieries are located absolutely on the line of the railway, they are most conveniently situated. The coal is of a character suitable for locomotive purposes and the enterprise of the collieries is absolutely dependent upon the enterprise of the railway, partly for the coal sold to the Tailway company for use in its locomotives, and partly by reason of the facilities afforded by the railway for the transportation of coal to other customere.

Mr. PUGSLEY:

Is the colliery on the

main line?

Mr. OLIVER:

On the main line of the

Grand Trunk Pacific railway. It is so fortunately situated that in the earlier stages of development it was possible to chute the coal down into the cars of the railway company. There is no doubt that the convenience of location was in large measure the inducement to people to invest their money in the enterprise, and when this Government, in broad, general terms, announces that as a part of its policy those rails are to be tom up and does not vouchsafe to this House or any one else any suggestion ias to what else is being done in the matter, I say it is deliberately undertaking to wreck an important industrial enterprise in the province of Alberta-and that is not the business of any Government, no matter who is its leader or who compose it.

This subject has been before the public in the eastern press for a considerable period, and in order that the House may understand the facte, I shall have to ask the liberty of trespassing for a few moments to explain the actual situation. I have seen statements in the press that for two or three hundred miles the Grand Trunk Pacific and the Canadian Northern railway were duplicated, occupying the same territory, and without any reason for two lines of railway. In this particular case I want to say that the Jasper Park Collieries are situated at the foot of Mount Miette, one of the outer chain of the Rockies, on the south side of the Atha-baska river. The valley of the Atha-baska river forms the eastern part [DOT] of *what is generally known as the Yellowhead pass, and gives entrance from the prairies into the mountains from the east side. It happens that the Athabaska river at that point is spread into a lake, or rather a series of lakes, Jasper lake and Brule lake, so it is not a matter merely of crossing the river but, if there is to be communication across the river, a matter of bridging several miles, which, of course, would be quite impossible. These lakes run for a length of a little over thirty miles, and it happens that the Grand Trunk Pacific goes up on the one side of these lakes and the Canadian Northern railway on the other, so that when the Grand Trunk track i6 taken away, as it is being taken away, there is no question that the Jasper Park colleries are left absolutely in the air. Commercially, they might as well be in Palestine as where they are. I have seen the suggestion that where the Government is going to tear up the Grand Trunk Pacific tracks-and where they are needed, if

you please-the rails are to be replaced by Canadian Northern rails that are to be taken up. The Canadian Northern runs for thirty odd miles on one side of the Athabaska river and the lakes, and the Grand Trunk Pacific on the other. The Jasper Park colleries are on the south side, and the Grand Trunk Pacific depends largely on these collieries for its supply of fuel. Colleries are being developed on the other iside of the lake, one set by the Canadian Northern and another by the Jasper Park Colleries company, so that no one line of railway can by any possibility develop the coal properties on each aide of the Athabaska vallley in that stretch of the road. When the proprietors of the Jasper Park colleries see the track being taken up, they are told in a most indefinite way that they are going to be taken care of- though they know that the removal of the Canadian Northern tracks on the. other side would leave the collieries there in exactly the same position. I submit that the answer given to the question of the Jasper Park Colleries company regarding . the removal of these rails' is not by iany means satisfactory.

I have received telegrams not only from the Jasper Park colleries, but also from the town of Edson, which is a divisional point on the Grand Trunk Pacific railway, 130 miles west of Edmonton. It is the starting point of a provincial wagon road to Grand Prairie, and it has roundhouses and all the equipment of a divisional point. Two brajich railroads communicate with coal mines west of Edson, so that Edson takes care of the traffic not only on the main lines, but on these two branches which form a junction with the main line a little west of the town, at a place called Bickerdike-Which makes the hon. member for St. Lawrence, Montreal', famous. The population of Edison is 600. The assessed value of the land in the town is over $1,000,000; its public buildings are worth $100,000 and other buildings $250,000. It has a debenture debt of $80,000. Surrounding the town of Edson is a rural municipality with 300 voters and with an assessment of $283,000. Beyond the municipality is a settlement which includes over 1,000 people, who settled there in the express understanding and belief that they were to have the l>enefit of the Grand Trunk Pacific railway as their means of communication. While there are portions of the line between Edmonton and Tete Jaune Cache where the two railways are very close

1$22

Mr. HAZEN:

Which one is that?

Mr. OLIVER:

I could not make the

distinction. The Canadian Pacific has a double track from Port Arthur eastward. They were going to dtouble track it all the way to Montreal, and they got it partially ooimpieted before the slump came before the war. Then they ceased' construction, and the rails of that double track road are lying there still. The taking up of those rails would not affect injuriously the interests of any private citizen. It would, of course, be to- the disadvantage of the Canadian Pacific, but the Canadian Pacific has other lines, and I submit that until they find it necessary to double track all the way through, that portion of the road is of minor importance and of minor usefulness. But we do not lay hands on the Canadian Pacific. It seems that the rails of the Canadian Pacific are bored a little differently from the rails of the Grand Trunk, although both are of the same quality and weight of -steel.

The Canadian Northern and the Canadian Pacific are parallel from the foot of Kamloops . Lake to Yale in British Columbia, a distance of over 100 miles. Does the presence of those two roads increase the development of that part of the country? Why no one who has ever gone through that section would ever suggest such an absurdity. Is there so much traffic over these two roads that one road cannot carry it all? That is not true, either. I am reminded also that from Port Arthur to Nipigon the Canadian Northern and Canadian Pacific are parallel, and the Canadian Pacific is double-tracked for that distance

if I am not mistaken. There is no development there, and no possibility of development here or hereafter, now or in the future. So I say the conclusion is absolutely irresistible that this attach upon the Grand Trunk west of Edmonton is simply an attack upon the enterprise, and is made not with regard to the interests of the British Government and not in the interests of winning the war. It. is not fair dealing as between the people that are affected, and the people that would be affected by the lifting of rails in other parts of the country. But because these rails are out in Alberta or in the Rocky Mountains, because they are not in the great province of Ontario, it does not matter. I hope we have a House of Commons here that is a House of Commons for Canada, and not a House of Commons for any one province of Canada; a House of Commons that realizes that the growth of Canada depends upon the growth of every part of this country and that connection through the Rocky Mountains by the best possible pass is an absolutely necessary factor in the development of this country both east and west of the mountains.

We are told that these tracks must be torn up in order to win the war; that these rails are required in France, and therefore they must be taken up at -once because rails cannot be got anywhere else. Now, first of all, I am going to make an assertion, and it is this: the rails that have already been taken up on the 300 miles of the eastern part of the Transcontinental are not yet in France, nor is there any possibility of their being in France for a very considerable period. If rails are wanted in France, I ask you, Sir, and I ask this House, if they cannot be got, just as rails can he got to be used on roads in the Dominion of Canada. A short time ago I asked this question:

1. Are rails for renewal purposes now required on the Intercolonial Railway?

2. Will the rails so required, in all or in part, be rolled at Sydney or Sault Ste. Marie, under arrangements with the Imperial Munitions Board ?

Mr. Cochrane:

1 Yes.

2. To be rolled at Sydney.

Now, if rails can be rolled at Sydney for the Intercolonial, I fancy they can be rolled at Sydney for use in France, if it is desired to roll them at that point. But never mind about Sydney. There are on the other side of the line enormous plants for the production of railway material, including rails, and every man knows that it is only a ques-

tion of price whether those rails can be procured or not. If the price of rails to-day is $40 a ton, and rails cannot be got at that money, is there anybody who will say that they could not be got for $80 a ton on the other side of the line?

Mr. R. B. BENNETT:

Yes.

Mr. OLIVER:

Because anybody who says so certainly is not paying due regard to the facts. .

Mr. R. B. BENNETT:

They cannot be got for less than $100 a ton.

Mr. OLIVER:

My hon. friend has my answer already. I saw in yesterday's papers that the Russian Government is able to make a contract with firms in the United States for supplying locomotives. Could not they have made a contract for an equal value of steel rails if they had paid the price? I think they could. My hon. friend mentions $100 a ton. I ask you, Sir, will $100 a ton pay the damages to the Grand Trunk Railway Company, to my constituents, and to the people of Canada, resulting from the tearing up of these tracks? I say it will not begin to pay it, and an honest endeavour to do the best that could be done to help the war in France would have caused this Government to secure those rails from the United States at whatever price was necessary rathe: than tear up the rails in our own country, thereby discommoding our own people, discrediting our own enterprise, and in the end charging the British Government two or three times as much as they should have paid.

There are railways being built in Canada to-day, and there are many more that ought to be built. Rails are being bought for these railways. Rails are being laid now on a road 300 miles in length from Edmonton to Fort McMurray; were laid during the winter, and are being laid to-day. These rails were purchased somewhere, and I do not imagine that the management of that road have more resources with which to buy rails than has this Government. The Government is engaged in the construction of a railway on its own account, the Hudson Bay railway. We have been told that they have slackened construction on that road, that they are not going to push it to a finish. Well, if they are not going to push it to a finish, and at an early day too, I will ask these hon. gentlemen of what use under heaven are these rails that have already been laid, or the rails that are piled up ready to be used, but which will not be used? I am a supporter of the Hudson Bay

railway; I believe that that road should be pushed to completion, and pushed to completion at the earliest day. But if the Government is not going to use these rails for the Hudson Bay road, and is not going to finish the road, then why not use these rails instead of tearing up the rails of the Grand Trunk Pacific west of Edmonton?

Hon. FRANK COCHRANE (Minister of Railways):

I am more than surprised at the extravagant statements made by the hon. member for Edmonton (Mr. Oliver). He seems to know more about what rails are required and what rails should go forward for use at the front than the British Government do. These rails are laid under fire in many cases, and the British

4 p.m. Government have asked us to send rails of the same borings and the same kind as before, so that they may be laid as easily and as quickly as possible. And now the statement is made again that we are bound to ruin the construction of the Grand Trunk Pacific and Transcontinental. It is all bosh-nothing but bosh. I have heard a great deal from the other side of the House to the effect that we have degraded the line and all that kind of thing. Why, that is all wrong; it is impossible. It is as good a road as ever has been laid; it has never been degraded in any sense of the word. I defy any one to prove it.

Mr. OLIVER:

Then why tear it up?

Mr. COCHRANE:

I would tear up the whole Transcontinental, yes, and every other railway in Canada, to win the war.

Mr. OLIVER:

Then why would not the hon. gentleman take a few Canadian Pacific Railway rails?

Mr. COCHRANE:

Because, as I have told you, the British Government asked us to send rails of the same kind as those sent before. We sent over 300 miles of rails taken from the Transcontinental, taking up many of- the sidings, and rails in terminal points, which are not necessary at present, because they were laid to provide for a larger business than the road is likely to have for many a year.

Mr. PUGSLEY:

Are not the railways in France on which these rails are being laid narrow gauge lines carrying light engines for the purpose of moving supply trains?