July 19, 1917

CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I beg to move that the words " applicable and " be struck out.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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CON

Hugh Boulton Morphy

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MORPHY:

Is the word " therewith " intentionally used there?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Yes.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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CON

Hugh Boulton Morphy

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MORPHY:

It seems to me it should be " herewith ".

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I remember my hon.

friend drawing that to my attention. It seems to me that " therewith " is the proper word. You might read it in this way: " The Militia Act . . . shall form part of this Act so far as not inconsistent therewith." The intention is clear and "therewith " appears to be the proper word.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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Amendment agreed to. On the schedule, subsection 6-Divinity students:


CON

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir ROBERT BORDEN moved:

That subsection 6 of the schedule be reconsidered.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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Motion agreed to.


CON

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

This exception

in its original form read as follows:

6 Clergy, Including members of any recognized order of an exclusively religious character, and ministers of all religious denominations existing in Canada at the date of the passing of this Act.

In committee the words " divinity students and " were added, so that the clause reads:

6. Clergy, including divinity students and members of any recognized order of an exclusively religious character, and ministers of all religious denominations existing in Canada at the date of the passing of this Act.

On further consideration it has been found that the words " divinity students " covered a wider class than was contemplated. As pointed out by the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil), it would include a great many who would also be included in the word " clergy " which is also used in this section. Moreover, it has been represented that it covers a class a very considerable portion of whose members would not desire to be included in the exception. The question arose as to whether or not this particular class of students ought to be included within the terms of the exception or left with other students to take advantage of the exemption clauses. There is reason to believe that those who are not included in the term " clergy ' would be so situated as to entitle them to favourable consideration for exemption by one of the tribunals. In the circumstances it is thought best that the clause should be restored to its original form and I therefore move that the words " divinity students and " be struck out.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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LIB

Charles Marcil

Liberal

Mr. MARCIL:

I understand the right

hon. gentleman to say that students who already form part of the clergy are within the exception?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

Yes.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
Permalink
LIB
CON

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

Those who aTe not covered by the exception established by the word "^clergy " could of course apply for exemption to one of the tribunals.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

This is not a very clear explanation. What are we to understand by "clergy"? The interpretation may be very wide or very narrow according to the views of those who may discuss the question. The clergy, as I understand, are regularly ordained priests or ministers of any religious denomination. We have several religious bodies. Taking two great denominations of the Christian religion, the Roman Catholic and the Anglican, they have Tegularly ordained priests, and these are Tecognized as part of the clergy. But do the ministers of more democratic forms of religious government, such as the Presbyterian and Baptist,'come under the description of "clergy"?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
Permalink
L-C

Samuel Hughes

Liberal-Conservative

Sir SAM HUGHES:

What about the Methodists?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

I see no definition of clergy in the Bill.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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CON

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

In order to remove any possible doubt these words have been inserted in the clause:

Ministers of all religious denominations existing in Canada at the date of the passing of this Act.

As to the definition of "clergy," with regard to the Roman Catholic church, I have followed the interpretation presented to the House by the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil), and I think that the definition which he gave is sustained by the meaning attributed to this word in any of the standard dictionaries.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux

Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX:

I have consulted Murray and Webster and I find the following definitions of the word "clergy": Murray says:

The clerical order, the body of men set apart by ordination for religious service in the Christian church, opposed to laity.

According to Webster clergy means:

The body of men set apart, by due ordination, to the service of God, in the Christian church, in distinction from the laity; the clerical order; in England, often by restriction, the ministers of the Established Church; rarely all members of religious orders, male or female.

If my right hon. friend will look at the regulations adopted under the conscription law of the United States, in the official bulletin of Monday, July 9, at page 6, he will find the following:

The following are the only grounds for exemption:

1. That you are an officer, legislative, executive or judicial, of the United States, a state or territory, or the district of Columbia.

2. That you are a regular or duly ordained minister of religion.

3. That you were, on May 18, 1917, a student preparing for the ministry in any recognized theological or divinity school.

I suppose that May 18 is the date of the sanction of the Bill in the United States Congress. That is the regulation adopted as stating one ground of exemption in the United States. Can we do less in Canada? I do not suppose we should, and I think that the amendment which was adopted the other day should remain. It seems to me to be more in accord with the legislation passed by the United States.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
Permalink
CON

Robert Laird Borden (Prime Minister; Secretary of State for External Affairs; President of the Privy Council)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

I made some inquiry on the subject and I have satisfied myself that if we were to adopt the United States amendment, with a date fixed by the time wfien the Act comes into force, it would be of no practical service because it would not include divinity students in this country. The reason is that the divinity course in this country begins in September and ends in June. Any person who would have completed that course would have been

admitted to the minor orders to which my , hon. friend from Bonaventure alluded. The word "ordination" which is used, I think, in the extract read, obviously means the admission to an order. There is more than one order of the clergy in different churches. For instance, in the church to which I belong, there are bishops, priests, and deacons. They are all clergy as distinguished from the laity. In the Roman Catholic church, as I understand, there is perhaps a greater number of orders. At all events, I accepted the interpretation which the hon. member for Bonaventure put upon the wrord. In view of the circumstance I have mentioned, that the words "divinity students" would include a great many who would come under the definition of "clergy," it was thought that those who were not within the meaning of that word might be left to exemption by tribunals instead of absolute exemption under this clause.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
Permalink
LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

I am seeking information as to who will be included under the word " clergy." There are certain religious denominations in which the word " clergy " is well understood. The Presbyterians and Methodists, I think, have regularly ordained clergy, and that is well understood. I do not know whether the Quakers have clergy or not, or any regularly ordained ministers. I do not know whether the Baptists have regularly ordained clergy, although they have clergy, and upon this point I should like some information.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
Permalink

July 19, 1917