July 19, 1917

CON

Albert Sévigny (Minister of Mines; Secretary of State of Canada; Minister of Inland Revenue)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. SEVIGNY (translation):

I understand that the deacons and subdeacons are part of the clergy and, by that very fact, they are exempted.

227*

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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LIB

Edmond Proulx

Liberal

Mr. PROULX (translation):

Does not the term "clergy" include only those who have been ordained' as priests?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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CON

Albert Sévigny (Minister of Mines; Secretary of State of Canada; Minister of Inland Revenue)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Hon. Mr. SEVIGNY (translation):

I base that statement on the definition given to the House by the hon. member for Rouville and which I have before me.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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IND

Adélard Bellemare

Independent Conservative

Mr. BELLEMARE (translation):

Mr. Chairman, al'low me to say a few words in connection with the definition which is so often given to the word "clergy."

Under the canon law, as far as I am acquainted with it, those who would come under the definition of "clergy" are not only the deacons and subdeacons, priests, but also those who are only tonsured. By the very fact that you wear a cassock as an ecclesiastic, and by the fact of being tonsured, you belong to the clerical order; then you have the minor and major orders, and the priesthood. Therefore, if the privileges of the clergy are to be respected and if they are to be exempted from military duty, 1 say that not not only should the priests be exempted and those members of Teligious orders who have made monastic vows, but also divinity students who are tonsured.

But I shall go still further. Under the canon law, the clergy should be exempted from serving as soldiers. Such is the doctrine of the Catholic Church. I am not any more orthodox than the Pope is, but I know that those who form part of the clergy, as I have just explained, are forbidden, under the canon law, to serve as soldiers and to go on battle fields, except in extraordinary cases, as in the capacity of chaplains, field-hospital orderlies, etc. Such is the teaching of the Church. 1 give you that information sincerely and I speak knowingly.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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LIB

Charles Arthur Gauvreau

Liberal

Mr. GATJVREAU (translation):

Would my hon. friend allow me a word?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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IND

Adélard Bellemare

Independent Conservative

Mr. BELLEMARE (translation):

With pleasure..

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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LIB

Charles Arthur Gauvreau

Liberal

Mr. GAUVREAU (translation):

What

about those young men who, on leaving college, in June last, meant, to wear the cassock in 'September? Should the Bill be in force then, they shall be called out, will they take the cassock or comply with the provisions of the Bill? [DOT]

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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IND

Adélard Bellemare

Independent Conservative

Mr. BELLEMARE (.translation):

My answer to my hon. friend is that as to those who on the enforcement of the Bill, did not yet wear the cassock, or those who were not yet tonsuired or in the minor orders, I under-

stand that they will he included in the ordinary class.

Therefore, I believe that, as divinity students come under the definition of "clergy" in the Bill, those words should be left in the clause, as they make it more explicit.

But the fact should not be lost sight of that as in the English-speaking provinces-* and this I say with all due deference to them-judges will be found with a different frame of mind from ours, and who arc not familiar with our tenets, I submit that mistakes might be made to our prejudice in the construction of that clause.

Therefore, the clearer the clause will be, the easier it will be to do justice to every body, not only to the French Canadians but also to the 'Catholics of Ontario and the other provinces, as well as to our good friends, the Irish.

Amendment to the amendment (Mr. Le-mieux) lost on division.

Yeas, 30. Nays, 74.

Amendment (Sir Robert Borden) agreed to on division.

Yeas, 72. Nays, 32.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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CON

William Thomas White (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir THOMAS WHITE:

I desire to explain that I did not vote on account of being paired with the hon. member for Kamouraska (Mr. Lapointe).

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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CON

Albert Edward Kemp (Minister of Militia and Defence)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir EDWARD KEMP:

I did not vote because I was paired with the hon. member for Huntingdon (Mr. Robb). Had I voted I would have voted against Mr. Lemieux's amendment to the amendment and in favour of the amendment of my right hon. friend the leader of the Government.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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CON

Clarence Jameson

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. JAMESON:

I am paired with some hon. member.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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CON

Joseph Hormisdas Rainville (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Conservative (1867-1942)

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Rainville):

Or An There are no pairs on a vote in committee

Section as amended agreed to.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

I would like to direcl the attention of my hon. friend the Solicitor General (Mr. Meighen) to section 11. 1

think it is very desirable in the public interest that there should be publicity given to the applications which are made to the local tribunals for exemption and the decisions which, these tribunals give from time to time. I propose that the following be added, as subsection 8, to section 11:

Every local tribunal shall, at least once a week, cause to be published in the Canada Gazette a list of all applications dealt with by such tribunal during the preceding week with a short summary of the grounds of the application in each case and the decision arrived

at with a statement of the reasons for such decision.

These local tribunals are to be appointed by a Board in which this Parliam'nt-whic'h means, of course, the Conservative majority, the party controlled by the Government-will have the determining voice. While it ds stated that it is to be appointed by a joint address, or resolution, of the two Houses of Parliament, that means that it will be the Conservative, or the Government, majority in these two Houses that will make the appointment. I do not wish to suggest that there will be anything unfair in the selection made. The Chairman reminds me that I cannot properly move this amendment unless the Solicitor General moves the reconsideration of the clause. I would hope that objection would not be made, for I understood thait there was to be opportunity to take up any particular section. Will m'y hon. friend move the reconsideration of the section? I would not have the right, because, under the rules, such a motion can only be made by one of the majority.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I have no objection to doing it, but if my hon. friend would continue his remarks I would like to make a few remarks myself, and when he has heard what I have to say, perhaps, he will not ask for a reconsideration.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

Very well, I would not suggest for a single moment that that power would not be exercised in such a way as to have a fair board appointed for the selection of the local tribunals; yet I think every hon. member will agree with me that it is extremely desirable that the public should have the most implicit confidence in the decisions coine to by the local tribunals on applications for exemptions made to them. There is nothing that would tend to give more general satisfaction, or cause the public to support the law more heartily, than to feel that in the administration of the Act fairness and impartiality have been shown. There is nothing like publicity to give the public that impression. It is most desirable that these tribunals should give to the public-not at great length, but *from week to week-a statement of the applications which are made, the names of the applicants, the grounds of application for exemption, the decisions arrived at, and a short statement of the reasons for those decisions. If the applications are kept from the public, if the grounds of application and the decisions of the tribunals are kept secret, there will be every

opportunity for suspicion in the public mind that the principles of the law are not being carried out fairly and impartially. That suspicion will be aroused in the public ;mind even though there may be the utmost impartiality and the greatest possible fairness. There is nothing like publicity to remove a misapprehension, the extent of which may be very great. Publication in the Canada Gazette would not cost the country anything, because the country owns the Canada Gazette, and it would be the mere expense of setting up the type and perhaps a little extra cost for paper. I would suggest this amendment most earnestly for the consideration of the Government. It will be time enough to determine whether I should move it when the Solicitor General has favoured us with his views in regard to the question.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
Permalink
CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

On the general principle of the wisdom of publicity with a view to establishing in the public mind a conviction that the tribunals are acting fairly, I have no disagreement with my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. Pugsley). With that end in view the Bill was framed so that the amplest provision might be made for such publicity as would be necessary. But the amendment is to the effect that the tribunals should be enjoined to publish in the Canada Gazette once a week a list of all applications dealt with, a list of the reasons in support of the applications, and a list of the reasons for the decisions of the tribunals.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
Permalink
LIB
CON

Arthur Meighen (Solicitor General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
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LIB

William Pugsley

Liberal

Mr. PUGSLEY:

I mentioned the Canada Gazette because I thought if we left the publication to. local newspapers a large expenditure in the way of patronage might be involved.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
Permalink
LIB

Wilfrid Laurier (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Sir WILFRID LAURIER:

I am sorry

that my hon. friend did not see fit to accept the suggestion. The argument of the hon. member for St. John seemed to me conclusive, that publicity is the best guarantee we can have of the fairness of the application of this law. I still hope that ,my hon. friend will think well before finally rejecting it.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917.
Permalink

July 19, 1917