August 11, 1917

LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux

Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX:

I confess that the section will prove very drastic if it is lived up to and if the Ontario Government is sincere. Immediately after this Bill is sanctioned we will have a test of its sincerity. If it is sincere it will prohibit these papers from circulating in Ontario.

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink
LIB

Charles Marcil

Liberal

Mr. MARCIL:

I find in the Montreal Gazette of to-day two advertisements, one for "Molson's Extra Mild Ale" and another for "White Horse, the pride of the Army."

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink
CON

Joseph Hormisdas Rainville (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Conservative (1867-1942)

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Rainville):

We are not on clause 2 yet.

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink
CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

We are on clause 1.

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink

Section agreed to. On section 2-Mails not to be used for circulating liquor advertisements, etc., in province where such advertisements are prohibited:


CON

Richard Bedford Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. B. BENNETT:

Last year I very strongly supported legislation of this character, and it is a matter of more than ordinary satisfaction to know that the province of Alberta, at the last session of the legislature, availed itself of the very provision of the statute that we then passed. I submitted at that time that any province might pass legislation limiting the quantity of intoxicating liquors that any of its citizens might have in his possession, and that once that limit was imposed by provincial legislation, it followed that by virtue of the legislation we then passed, any attempt on the part of any person either to ship or to import into that province a larger quantity than the quantity fixed by the law of the province would be a violation of the law and subject both the importer and the shipper to the penalties that are provided. So that, on the first day of July of this year, there came into force a statute passed by the legislature of Alberta which provides that if any individual has in his possession a greater quantity than one pint of intoxicants, he shall be subject to the pains and penalties provided by the statute.

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink
LIB
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. B BENNETT:

Not even a "square-face"-and a larger quantity of beer. It follows that in that province to-day, if the firm in Montreal to which my hon. friend has just referred, endeavoured to ship to

[Mr. Lemieux.}

the city of Calgary, consigned to me, a case of whisky, I should be liable under the terms of the Act of last session, and the shipper would also be liable because of the shipment into Alberta of a larger quantity than by the law of the province I could have in my possession. Therefore, this statute in actual practice is working out to the very end that was sought; and by and by, when public opinion has become educated, and there is behind the law that sanction of public opinion without which no statute can become effective, the legislature will declare that it is an offence for any of its citizens to have any quantity of intoxicants in his possession. When that moment arrives, as it will arrive, any shipment from Ontario or British Columbia into that province will be a violation of the provisions of the statute and prohibition will be an accomplished fact.

My hon. friend1 from Cape Breton (Mr. McKenzie) referred to the fact that the Federal Government might have enacted a statute forbidding the manufacture of intoxicants. But I desire to point out to him that large investments have been made in this country for the manufacture of intoxicants, not necessarily for the use of the Canadian people, and' for my part, while I am content to see placed upon the statute books of my country, province and Dominion alike, legislation which will bring about prohibition, I am not yet so ambitious as to desire to impose my views as to sumptuary legislation upon the minds of those who may desire to import Canadian whisky into their own country. The enactment of temperance legislation goes on in Canada and if we were to carry the laws on the statute books to their ultimate end these intoxicants could find a market only outside of Canada and in those countries that may desire to use them. That is the position. I do not believe that my hon. friend would think that it would be proper on the part of the Canadian Parliament and people to say: We will forbid you to manufacture for those people in South America who like Walker's whisky or a form of gin that is manufactured. If these people see fit to use these intoxicants they must be the best judges as to what they want. I would -resent very keenly the people of South America undertaking to determine what I should eat or drink. If they desire to use intoxicants in that manner, I submit, we should not [DOT] prevent them. If we so desire, legislation looking to the accomplishment of prohibition in Canada, can be made absolutely effective. The province of Alberta is now on the highroad to that end. As far as

the carrying trade is concerned I am sure that my hon. friend will agree that a common carrier must accept freight. He who ships and he who receives must accept any consequences in so far as they involve a violation of the law, unless we treat the carriage of liquor as we do some form of high explosives and make the law absolutely prohibitive.

Ajs far as this section is concerned, it aims to treat advertisements in public newspapers on the same basis as shipments of the liquor itself. If the province of Alberta, as it has, passes legislation forbidding advertisements within the province of intoxicants for sale, forbidding advertisements in newspapers in Alberta, this legislation makes it an offence for a newspaper publisher outside of Alberta to send into that province his papers with advertisements of intoxicating liquors offered for sale. What happened in the United States may happen here. I have no doubt that hon. gentlemen are fully aware of the great struggle that took place in some of the western states to accomplish this very thing. One .of the largest and most enterprising journals in the United States is publishing a special edition for circulation in those states where they have passed this law while its general edition circulates throughout other parts of the republic. I doubt not that many hon. gentlemen in this House have seen the editorial references that have been made by Life, one of the most interesting of American journals, with respect to the character of that legislation. Whether such legislation commends itself to every one or not is another question, but at least this Bill makes effective the Acts which have been passed by the provinces in the exercise of the legislative jurisdiction which they enjoy under the constitution. They having declared their mind this Parliament has supplemented their efforts by declaring that any endeavour on the ipart of a liquor seller or newspaper vendor to circumvent the law of the province and to nullify its effect shall be an offence punishable upon conviction under the statute. For that reason I congratulate the minister upon what he has done. I do believe that when we have carried this legislation to its finality we shall have accomplished, with the sanction of the great body of public opinion, behind it, that measure of prohibition which only will be effective in a country such as this.

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink
CON

John Hampden Burnham

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BURNHAM:

I should hesitate to

adopt the moral principle laid down by the hon. membeT for Calgary, namely, that

because other people want a thing, therefore it will be right for us to manufacture or to provide it. If the people of the Fiji Islands wish to commit murder, therefore, under this principle, I have a right to ship them knives or explosives or anything of that kind, knowing exactly for what purpose they wish to have them. That is a doctrine to which I will not subscribe. Too much congratulation cannot be extended to the Minister of Justice for his fair and equitable handling of this question. There has been a great body of public opinion in Canada both foT and against provincial rights. That is to say, they have been on some occasions very strongly for provincial independence, and those very same people, when other matters were under discussion, were very anxious that provincial rights should not be granted. Such an impossible position as that, of course, could not exist. It is in the face of that that the Minister of Justice, bearing in mind the essential principle of provincial rights, has endeavoured to make provincial rights what they were intended to be, namely, a source of independence and liberty on the part of the provinces so far as it is possible, for them to exist consistent with Confederation. He has observed that; he has carried it out; he has put in the hands of the different provinces the possibility of practising that degree of abstinence which they desire. It is well recognized, and must be recognized, that if a province does not desire to have prohibition, as, for example, British Columbia, it would be absolutely impossible for the Dominion to enforce it there. We know perfectly well, following what has been said by many members of the Opposition with regard to different railways, and so on, that if prosecutions did ensue it would be put down to politics, and if they did not it would also be put down to polities. So that, all things considered, there can be no question whatever that this method of dealing with the liquor question is beyond all peradventure the very best, and I am sure that the people of Canada will congratulate the Minister of Justice and the House upon having piloted .through such a wholesome measure.

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. B. BENNETT:

I was dealing with sumptuary legislation. 'Sumptuary legislation is a matter about which divers opinions are held by divers people, and I for one am not prepared to decide upon sumptuary legislation for anybody in South America.

Mr. MARCH.: Would the hon. member tell the House that he is in favour of-continuing the manufacture of liquor and beer in this country with foodstuffs which are required at the present time? Does he consider that these are normal times in Canada, and that, in view of what Parliament has authorized by Order in Council, the time is opportune to deal with this question as he would have dealt with it ten or fifteen years ago?

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. B. BENNETT:

I am opposed to the use of grains for the manufacture of intoxicating liquors in war times, and always have been.

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink
LIB
CON

Richard Bedford Bennett

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. R. B. BENNETT:

Even for the people of Ontario.

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink
CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

I would call attention to the fact that we are on a clause dealing with the question of sending liquor advertisement through the mails, and it seems to me that the discussion of the general question of prohibition is not relevant to this clause.

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink
LIB

Daniel Duncan McKenzie

Liberal

Mr. McKENZIE:

It is unfortunate that these rules are discovered when the discussion drifts to this side of the House. The cyclone commenced in western Ontario and swept this way, taking in all the provinces; but only when it crossed the Table to this side of the House were there any rules at all. I am sorry, now it has crossed to this side, that prohibition and restriction have immediately come into force.

On section 4 B-Seizure of liquor pending conviction:

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink
CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mt. DOHERTY:

This is a clause to

make it possible to seize liquor so that it may be held until the conviction is had. Under the Act as it stands, if there is conviction of an offence against this Act the liquor which forms the corpus delicti is confiscated, but unless you provide for a method of 'seizure whereby it can be held, in most cases the liquor is not there when the conviction is obtained. I think the necessity of the clause is obvious. Attention has been called to this matter by different provincial officers engaged in the enforcement of the law.

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink
LIB

James Joseph Hughes

Liberal

Mr. J. J. HUGHES:

I beg to suggest some slight amendments to this section, having in view the conditions in Prince Edward Island. Provision is made to have an officer search a government railway or

vehicle or steamship. I should like to have the word " warehouse " inserted after " railway

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink
CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

Are there Government

warehouses?

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink
LIB
CON

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOHERTY:

I shall be very glad to insert the word " warehouse

Topic:   SALE OR USE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS.
Permalink

August 11, 1917