Mr. BALLANTYNE:
Two are 8,100 tons and two 10,500 tons. The price is $195 a ton.
Mr. DUFF:
Deadweight capacity, or
registered ton?
Mr. BALLANTYNE:
Deadweight. I will explain why we deviated from the policy announced a year ago that we were only going to keep existing yards going.
Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR:
What is the speed of those ships?
Mr. BALLANTYNE:
The speed of the 8,100-ton ships is ten knots sea speed; that of some of the smaller ships is eight knots and of others nine, and that of the 10,500-ton three-deck ships to be built at Halifax, will be thirteen knots. As regards the type of ships, after consultation with the technical officers of my department, we decided it was wise not to build too expensive a freight ship, but at the same time to make our ships as efficient as possible. And I am proud to state to the committee that in no other country in the world, not even in the Old Country, are any ships being built better than those which our Canadian shipyards have so far turned out for the Dominion Government.
I now wish to refer to the matter of price which ranges all the way from $180 to $215
per ton dead weight, and I hope hon. members will fully realize that when the Government commenced their shipbuilding programme a year ago, everything was at its height; labour was very high, the rate of wages was constantly increasing, as was the cost of boilers, engines, and all the auxiliary equipment that goes into a ship. I am pleased to state that the forty-five ships that we have under contract for the Da-minion Government are being built at a considerably lower cost than the ships on the vast programme of shipbuilding which the United States Emergency Fleet Corporation are carrying out. Their ships have cost considerably more than ours, notwithstanding the fact that they have turned out so far 555 steel ships.
Mr. LEMIEUX:
What is approximately the difference per ton?
Mr. BALLANTYNE:
I do not like to say anything but what would be pleasant about our neighbours who are our allies and who have helped us in every way possible, but according to the information I have received, their price, taking all the ships they have ordered from the various shipyards, would be at least $25 per ton higher than the forty-five contracts we have entered into in Canada.
Sir SAM HUGHES:
Where do we get the steel plates?
Mr. BALLANTYNE:
From the United States. The other night the leader of the Opposition (Mr. McKenzie) made a statement in this House, and he never makes a statement unless he is reasonably sure of the facts. While I give him credit for sincerely believing that the statement he made was correct, if I read Hansard aright -I was not in the House at the time-he stated that the Canadian Government ships under contract cost 400 per cent more than* they had any right to cost, the comparison made by the hon. gentleman being between the pre-war price in England of $50 per ton and the prices the 'Canadian Government have made with the various shipyards throughout the country. The correction I wish to make is that the hon. member overlooked stating that his price was a pre-war price. The most reliable information I can get from England, Ireland and Scotland is that all of their yards are busy; that they are building ships rapidly for themselves, and that they are also building a certain number of ships for their Allies in Europe. Consequently, no one can get a firm price for ships over there. If any one in Canada wanted to build a ship of any size and
approached any of the Old Country yards, . he would be told that they would enter into a contract with him on a cost plus basis, but that they could not give him a firm price per ton. He would also be told that they could not make deliveries before at least the spring of 1920. In this connection, I might quote a well known shipbuilder, Sir G. B. Hunter, of the firm of Swan, Hunter, a firm distinguished for its shipbuilding. Sir G. B. Hunter, in an interview which was reported in the Newcastle Journal on April 6, 1919, stated that ships cost at present three times as much to build in England and Scotland as they did before the war. Therefore, if we take the hon. member's figure of $50 per ton, and if we take the well known and reliable authority which I have quoted, namely Sir G. B. Hunter, ships built in the United Kingdom at the present time would cost $150 per ton.
Mr. McKENZIE:
What I had in mind
was that the Government which preceded the one of which the minister is a member, were so slow in taking up a policy of shipbuilding that prices had gone up so much to the disadvantage of Canada.
Mr. BALLANTYNE:
" The hon. member surely does not think that at any time since war began, ships could be built for $50 per ton, either in the Old Country or Canada, and that is the point I am trying to clear up.
When the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Carvell) was making an able address in this House about shipbuilding, the hon. member for Guysborough (Mr. J. H. Sinclair) made a statement similar to that made by the hon. member (Mr. McKenzie). He said that Canadian Government ships were costing four times as much as they ought to cost. Therefore I want to make it clear to this Committee and to the country that those hon. gentlemen were referring to pre-war prices in making those comparisons.
Mr. J. H. SINCLAIR:
The Financial Post was my authority for making the statement that ships are being built on the Clyde for $55 per ton. The contract price in Halifax is $200 per ton dead weight, which is approximately four times as much.
Mr. BALLANTYNE:
If the hon. member can give me the name of any firm on the Clyde that will build ships for $55 per ton the Canadian Government will be glad to give it a large contract. I do not know of any firm in the Old Country that would undertake to build ships at any such price,
although I give the hon. member credit for making a statement which he believed was accurate at the time. 1 merely want to clear this point up, because I do not want the public to think that, in order to build ships in Canada, we are compelled to pay $180 to $215 per ton when they could be built in the Old Country for $50 per ton.
Mr. DUFF:
Has the minister made enquiries of large shipbuilding firms, and if so what prices has he received?
Mr. BALLANTYNE:
I have. I sent cablegrams to four different firms in order that the information which I am now giving might be accurate and up to date. It will interest hon. members to know that one of our great allies is having thirty wooden ships built in Canada at the present time at a price of $200 per ton dead weight, so that if $200 per ton is being paid for a wooden ship I do not think the Government have paid too high a price when it pays from $180 to $215 for steel ships.
Mr. DUFF:
Where are those wooden ships being built?
Mr. BALLANTYNE:
At Victoria.
Mr. DUFF:
We are building wooden ships in Nova Scotia for about $75 a ton dead weight.
Mr. BALLANTYNE:
The type of ship built at Victoria for $200 per ton would, I imagine, be entirely different from that of the ships being built in the Maritime Provinces for $75 per ton.
Mr. LEMIEUX:
The ships are being built at Victoria, B.C., for the French Government? *