Mr. BALLANTYNE:

Yes. I wish to explain why the Government found it necessary to pay British Columbia shipbuilders $10 per ton more than eastern shipbuilders. First of all, I endeavoured to place contracts with British Columbia shipbuilders at the eastern prices, but they pointed out. that the labour cost was $7 per ton more in British Columbia than in the East, and that freight rates were very much higher. After a great many interviews, extending over some months, the Government agreed to pay the British Columbia shipbuilders $10 per ton more than the eastern price for a similar type of ship. For instance, if an 8,100-ton ship was being built by Vickers of Montreal for $180 per ton, the price for a similar ship in the British Columbia yards would be $190 per ton.

There has been some criticism of myself, especially by the British Columbia ship-

builders, because I would not allow them to take foreign contracts. When the war was on, France, Norway, and Italy were urging us to allow ships to be built here for them. I would gladly have consented had we been able to get sufficient ship plates, marine engines, boilers, and the other necessary equipment for our own needs, and at the same time have a surplus for ships to be built on foreign accounts; but unfortunately, notwithstanding the fact that we had an agreement with the United States for 80,000 tons of plate; up to the time of the signing of the armistice we had only been able to get some 6,000 tons. So I could do nothing else than say to these gentlemen that Canada could not afford to delay her own shipbuilding programme by building ships on foreign account.

With regard to the slowness of the construction of some of our ships, I admit that the yards have taken very much longer than I anticipated, but the delay has been unavoidable owing to the shortage of skilled and unskilled labour, and the great difficulty in getting shipbuilding plate from the United States, as well as engines, boilers, and other equipment. The ships are coming along more rapidly now than when the war was on. Before I leave the subject, I might say that quite recently there has been a great demand for space. Our ships are going to be operated by the Canadian Government Merchant Marine Limited, and naturally manufacturers and firms who have large orders for shipment abroad halve been coming to the Marine Department to know whether or not they can get the tonnage. I have been approached, for instance, by the Dominion Coal Company, who told me that all their ships had been requisitioned by the British Minister of Shipping, and they wanted tonnage to send t*000,0(X) tons of coal to Montreal. They said that unless the Canadian Government could provide the tonnage they might have to close down their mines, which would be almost a catastrophe. The steel men, the pulp men, the sugar men and the general produce merchants all want to know what tonnage the Canadian Government can provide. The British ships that are plying from 'Canadian ports at the present time have seventy per cent of their available cargo space reserved for the British Minister of Shipping, which leaves only thirty per cent for the Canadian export trade.

Sir SAM HUGHES:

Are the Dominion Coal Company's ships on the British register?

Mr. BALLANTYNE:

Some of them are, and some are on the Canadian register.

Mr. MURPHY:

Has the minister been able to meet the requirements of the Dominion Coal Company?

Mr. BALLANTYNE:

I did everything I could in that respect while I was in England last year. I have since sent many cables to the British Minister of Shipping. The Canadian High Commissioner, Sir George Foster, and Mr. Lloyd Harris have all done their very best, but I am sorry to say they have been unable to get the tonnage. To illustrate the great necessity of our having ships at the present time let me read a cable received by the Canadian Manufacturers' Association from Mr. R. J. Young of the Canadian Mission in London, under date of March 1, and which was handed to me only yesterday:

Our work here practically futile unless additional ocean space can be secured. Commercial shipments Canada to Great Britain now three times quantity space available, and rate of freight on many lines practically prohibitive, amounting in many instances to seventy-five per cent invoice value. Steamship companies in many instances charging double published rate.

He goes on to ask what assistance I can give, and concludes, addressing the Canadian Manufacturers' Association:

You may make statement that unless the matter of shipping is immediately attended to Canadian tr 'e will suffer tremendous loss.

Sir SAM HUGHES:

If some of the Dominion Coal Company's ships are on Canadian register, by what right can the British Admiralty requisition them?

Mr. BALLANTYNE:

Before a Canadian registered ship can be so requisitioned, application has to be made to the Canadian Government through the Minister of Marine. When the war was on and tonnage was required to transport munitions and foodstuffs and soldiers across the seas, the Canadian Government could not refuse to release the ships on Canadian register.

Sir SAM HUGHES:

Why not get them back now?

Mr. BALLANTYNE:

Of course, we have no authority over the ships on the British register.

Mr. GAUTHIER:

Did I understand the minister to say that we are importing all our steel plate from the United States?

Mr. BALLANTYNE:

All the plate we have used on our ships to date has been imported from the United States. The plate mill at, Sydney is not yet ready.

Mr. GAUTHIER:

I asked the question because I was under the impression that, pursuant to the Order in Council passed in March, 1918, the Canadian Government had entered into a contract with the Dominion Steel Corporation for steel plates.

Mr. BALLANTYNE:

I shall come to that in a moment. I think it will interest the House to know what Australia is doing in the matter of shipbuilding. She is not only building her own merchant marine, but war ships too, so their Minister of the Naval Service, Sir Joseph Cook, informed me when I was in London. Australia has erected during the war a plate mill. Besides the ships Australia is now building, she bought ten ships in 1915 or 1916 and these have proved to be very profitable. They are now building twenty ships more. The Acting Minister of the Australian navy, Mr. Poynton, announced on April 10th that the Australian Government would remain in the shipping business and would continue its shipbuilding programme. He said that their present programme contemplated the building of twenty steel ships.

Mr. LEMIEUX:

And war ships as well?

Mr. BALLANTYNE:

Yes. I now come to the policy of the Government for the future. I have already stated that we have forty-five ships under contract. There are at th'e present time certain yards in Canada that require business. Berths are becoming vacant, and many more will become vacant in the very near future. The Government has not finally decided how many additional ships they will order but I will bring down in my Supplementary Estimates the amount that the Government will think it wise to ask approval for. The sum of $30,000,000 that I am dealing with now is to complete the contracts that we have already let, but in view of the fact that there is a great demand for ships and also that we could sell some of our ships under contract at the present time if the Government deemed it wise to do so, we are not going to discontinue shipbuilding for the moment. We realize that there are

30,000 men engaged in the shipyards throughout Canada, from Prince Rupert to Halifax, and there are fully 10,000 more engaged in the industry of making engines, boilers, etc., and to cause 40,000 men to be out of employment at this time would be rather a dangerous thing to do. It is therefore not the intention of the 'Government to cease their shipbuilding programme now. We are going to order additional ships, at least to keep the yards that are requiring

work busy throughout the balance of 1919, and probably for a few months in 1920.

Sir SAM HUGHES:

What class of men are these shipbuilders? Are they British or Canadian people, or are they the foreign element that have been cursing us?

Mr. BALLANTYNE:

The hon. member

must realize that I have no way of knowing the nationality of these 30,000 men, but I should imagine that a very large majority of them are Canadians or British subjects. I was told this morning by one shipbuilder, from the Halifax shipyards, who employs a thousand men, and will shortly be employing two thousand, that 29 per cent of his total staff are returned soldiers.

Sir SAM HUGHES :

Hear, hear.

Mr. BALLANTYNE:

There is such a

scarcity of work that it would not be wise on the part of the Government to discontinue at once their shipbuilding programme.

Mr. LEMIEUX:

As regards Vickers in

Montreal, I may say that 95 per cent, if not 99 per cent, are full fledged Canadian or British subjects.

Mr. BALLANTYNE": I do not want this House or the shipbuilders to think that the Government can go on forever ordering ships, because there must be a limit to the number of ships that the Canadian Government can use, and we are getting very near to that point. So that when I say that it is the intention of the Government, subject ^ to the approval of Parliament, to order more ships, the shipbuilders must not expect that there will be many more orders to follow, and they must therefore look for orders for their shipyards in the same way as any other industry in the country would.

There is no protection whatever given to the shipbuilders in the way of duty and bonus, and when the yards of the United Kingdom are free a year and a half hence to take Orders, it will be most difficult for the Canadian shipbuilder to compete unless some form of assistance is given by the Government. What that form of assistance will be has not yet been determined, but between now and the next session of the House we hope to have a policy ready to present to Parliament.