Mr. G. W. ANDREWS (Centre Winnipeg) :

In view of the serious situation in my constituency, would the Prime Minister be good enough to state the Government's attitude with regard to "collective bargaining," which I am informed is the basic cause of the sympathetic strikes now on in Winnipeg?

Rt. Hon. Sir ROBERT BORDEN (Prime Minister):

If the hon. gentleman will permit me, I should like to give an answer to his question which will be more comprehensive than the strict scope of the question might demand. The Government are thoroughly conscious that there is throughout the world a condition of industrial unrest which in some countries has reached a very acute stage, and I am very sincerely hopeful that the condition in this country will not go so far. I might remind the hon. gentleman and the House generally that the Government some months ago had under consideration what might arise in this country in the change from war conditions to peace conditions, and by reason of the demobilization of some hundreds of thousands of men who putting aside- in a time of great need their civilian activities, had taken up military duties and served with great distinction for years in the world theatre of war. It was thought at one time that the return and demobilization of the Canadian forces would occupy at least a year, and, perhaps, longer. It was even suggested that it might take eighteen months or two years, but owing to very active and energetic measures the task of demobilization will be accomplished in a much shorter time. Having regard to all these conditions, the Government, during my absence, passed on the 4th day of April

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last an Order in Council by which authority was taken for the appointment of a Royal Commission to report to the Government on the following matters:-

First, to consider and make suggestions for securing a permanent improvement in the relations between employers and employees.

Second, to recommend means for ensuring that industrial conditions affecting relations between employers and employees shall be reviewed from time to time by those concerned, with a view to improving conditions in the future.

It was further provided in the Order in Council that the commission should first make a survey and classification of existing Canadian industries; secondly, that it should obtain information as to the character and extent of the organization already existing among bodies of employers and employees respectively; and, thirdly, that it should investigate available data as to the progress made by established joint industrial councils in Canada, Great Britain, and the United States.

Following that, on the 9th day of April last, these gentlemen were appointed to be members of the commission: Chief Justice Mathers, of Manitoba (Chairman); Senator White, of Montreal; Mr. Charles Harrison, M.P., a member of this House; Mr. Carl Riordon, president of the Riordon Pulp & Paper Company, Montreal; Mr. F. Pauze, lumberman, of Montreal; Mr. T. Moore, presiident of the Trades and Labour Congress of Canada; and Mr. J. W. Bruce, of Toronto, member of the Labour Appeal Board.

These Orders were adopted upon a report to Council by Senator Robertson, Minister of Labour. This commission is still actively at work, and no doubt it will have to consider (if it has not already done so), and in the end report to the Government upon the particular question which my hon. friend (Mr. Andrews) has raised. He will therefore realize that any observations I may make in direct reply to his question must be in very guarded terms, although I shall have something to say about it in a few moments. The terms of the Order in Council did not necessitate, and on the other hand they did not preclude, legislation for the purpose of carrying out the report.

I have no doubt that in this country as well as in other countries tfhe stress and strain of the war have made the adjustment of difficulties between employers and employed more difficult than it would perhaps be under ordinary conditions. I do

not think there is one among us who has given any consideration at all to the subject, who will not agree that taking any nation as a whole whicfh has participated in the war-^including not only those men who have fought at the front but those who have remained at home and sought to do their duty there-the people are not quite the same, so far as imental poise and balance are concerned, as they were before the war.

I hope that both employers and employed will bear fully in mind the conditions I have alluded to, and especially the employers not overlook the principles which were adopted by all the nations represented in tlhe Peace Conference at -Paris, and which are included in the peace treaty as presented to the Germans.

I regard these principles as of sufficient importance to justify me in reading them, with the indulgence of the House:

The High Contracting Parties, recognizing that the well-being, physical, moral and intellectual, of industrial wage earners is of supreme international importance, have framed in order to further this great end the permanent machinery provided for in section 1 and associated with that of the League of Nations.

They recognize that differences of climate, habits and customs, of economic opportunity and industrial tradition, make strict uniformity in the conditions of labour difficult of immediate attainment. But, holding, as they do, that labour should not be regarded merely as an article of commerce, they think that there are methods and principles for regulating labour conditions which all industrial communities should endeavour to apply so far as their special circumstances will permit.

Among these methods and principles, the following seem to the High Contracting Parties to he of special and urgent importance :*-

First. The guiding principle above enunciated that labour should not he regarded merely as a commodity or article of commerce.

Second. The right of association for all lawful purposes by the employed as well as by the employers.

Third. The payment to the employed of a wage adequate to maintain a reasonable standard of life as this is understood in their time and country.

Fourth. The adoption of an eight hours day or a forty-eight hours week as the standard to be aimed at where it has not already been attained.

Fifth. The adoption of a weekly rest of at least twenty-fouir bourse which should include Sunday wherever practicable.

Sixth. The abolition of child labour and the imposition of such limitations on the labour of young persons as shall permit the continuation of their education and assure their proper physioal development.

Seventh. The principle that men and women should receive equal remuneration for work of equal value.

Eighth. The standards set by law in each country with respect to the conditions of labour should have due regard to the equitable

economic treatment of all workers lawfully resident therein.

Ninth. Each State should make provision for a system of inspection in which women should take part, in order to ensure the enforcement of the laws and regulations for the protection of the employed.

Without claiming that these methods and principles are either complete or Anal, the High Contracting Parties are of opinion that they aie well fitted to guide the policy of th.e League of Nations; and that, if adopted by the industrial communities who are members of the League, and safeguarded in practice by an adequate system of such inspection, they will confer lasting benefits upon the wage earners of the world.

Now, it has been alleged in some quarters that as regards the strike at Winnipeg the Government has taken sides. The Government lhas taken no sides in that dispute, except in so far as necessary executive action, to which I shall allude in a moment, may be looked upon in that light. I believe it will be obvious to all the members of the House, and, I hope, it will be equally obvious to all the people of Canada, that if the needs of the people as a whole are to be regarded we cannot have in this country a complete dislocation of public services founded upon sudh reasons as have been put forward by the postal employees of Winnipeg.

The Government of this country is in an entirely different situation from a private employer. The Government employs persons who are servants of all the people of the country. It differs from a private employer in many respects, but especially so in two important respects. In the first place, the duties for which public servants are employed have a direct relation to the maintenance of law and order and, as well, a direct relation to the operation of public services wihich are necessary for the convenience of the people. But in addition to that, it does not employ these people for any purpose of private gain or private interest; it is acting merely as the representative of the people as a whole, under the mandate, and only so long as it has the mandate of the majority of the people's representatives in Parliament. Therefore, certain considerations which .must obviously be taken into account in dealing with tlhe relations between a private employer and those whom he employs are utterly wanting when we come to consider the situation of persons who are employed in the public service. As the Government of the country has and can have no private interests to serve, inasmuch a3 it represents the people as a whole and acts under the authority of a mandate from

Parliament, by whom its acts can be corrected at any time, if -they seem to be improper or unjust, one would naturally suppose that in these circumstances the Government might be trusted to act fairly in respect of the remuneration of public servants and in respect of the conditions of their employment. But I should be prepared to go further than that and say that in appropriate cases the public servants of the country-persons usually known as members of the Civil Service-might ask for and obtain a sort of appeal against the Government of the country by arbitration or some such method; but always subject to final approval by Parliament, which is the ultimate authority so far as the Government is concerned.

In dealing with the situation at Winnipeg, there are certain fundamental considerations to which this Government is committed and which, I hope, will commend themselves to the people and to their representatives in this Parliament. In the first place, we are absolutely determined that law and order should be maintained; and, in the second place, we are of the opinion that members of the Civil Service cannot be permitted to disregard their public duties and to dislocate the public service under the conditions which have arisen in the city of Winnipeg.

On the one hand the Government directs them to discharge a public duty, a duty to the whole of the people of this country; on the other hand another authority directs them to disregard that duty. They must make their choice as to whether they will seirve the public as a whole, or whether, by disregarding that duty, they will abandon once for all the public service.

So far as "collective bargaining" is concerned, since my hon. friend who has asked this question spoke to me on the subject yesterday, I have made a good many inquiries as to precisely what that term convoys, and I am thoroughly satisfied that it has not any definite and final meaning which is recognized in all parts' of this country. I am further satisfied that in some parts of Canada, in some cities in this country, it may be understood by some persons in one sense, and 'by other persons m another sense. I want to make it perfectly plain that so far as my opinion goes, and I think it is the opinion of all the members of the Government, every possible facility should be given for discussion between employers and employed, and for the making of arrangements which will bring about industrial peace and maintain and

stabilize industrial conditions to the end that wasteful unemployment, used as a coercive measure, may be put to one side, and other methods-methods which must be so established as to do complete justice and remove any inequality-may be substituted in its place.

I should like to read, in this connection, the statement which has been made public by a minister of the Crown, Senator Robertson, and which is to be found in the morning press of this city. I knew Senator Robertson for some time before he came into this' Government, and I have known; him very intimately since he has been a member of the Government. No one can entertain the slightest doubt as to his absolute and complete sympathy with all the reasonable ideals of labour-there can be absolutely no doubt on that subject. No one who knows the man, or has been associated with him, can entertain the smallest atom of doubt as to his complete sincerity or as to his full sympathy with all the reasonable aspirations of labour. The statement which he has made public is this:

" Conditions for the right of collective bargaining which are stated *to be the cause of the Winnipeg strike seem to be generally misunderstood.

The employers, parties to the original dispute; the president of the Canadian Manufac-tui ers^ Association, and the Citizens' Committee as constituted since the strike occurred, all agree to the principle of collective bargaining as it is interpreted, namely, the right of any individual to -belong to a labour union if he so desires and the right of employees to bargain with their employers concerning matters affecting any individual plant or industry.

The central strike committee interprets tlhe right of collective bargaining to mean that the central body shall have the power to approve or reject any agreement that may be satisfactory to the employer or classes of employers and their employees, which, if granted, would have the result of enabling any central committee entirely outside the industry or craft affected to dictate the acceptance or rejection of any agreement In'stead of giving to the workmen in any individual -plant or industry the right of collective bargaining with their employers, the present plan deprives them -of the right -and places them entirely in the hands of a central -body, which principle, the Citizens' Committee of Winnipeg, Provincial and Federal Governments, agree cannot be accepted."

Now one can easily see that what is called the right of collective bargaining, if interpreted in a certain way and carried to an extreme length, might have an unfortunate effect so far as the public interest is concerned. More than that, as is suggested in this public statement, it might have the effect of placing labour men and labour unions themselves in such a situation that they could not make their own bargains except with the approval of some body that

might be situated thousands of miles away. Before the phrase "collective bargaining" is insisted upon, we ought to have, and we must have, an exact definition as to precisely what is intended by it and as to precisely what the results might be if that principle, so defined, should be adopted. On that point the Government will probably have suggestions or recommendations in the report of the Industrial Commission, which we hope to receive not later than the fifteenth day of next month. My hon. friend who has asked this question will realize that it would be out of place and, indeed, invidious for the Government to attempt, by way of anticipation, to pronounce upon questions which are properly within the scope of the duty imposed upon that commission.

I repeat once more that I hope in this country we may be able to arrange between employers and employed some understanding and such relations as will prevent the awful waste, the dislocation of public service, and what is worst of all, the intensely bitter feeling which is engendered by such incidents as are now occurring in some parts of the country.

The nations of the world have at Paris set about the task of establishing such a society as will prevent war in the future. Would it not be rather a mockery if the nations engaged in that greatest purpose [DOT]of all, should, in respect of their domestic -affairs, permit a condition to continue, and :to he perpetuated which, if it reaches the .-stage of a general strike, must obviously Involve the employment of some of the methods which are in use in modern warfare?

I most earnestly hope that the report of this commission, and appropriate action of the Government, may eventually bring about between employers and employed in Canada such better understanding, such more perfect realization of the viewpoint of one and the other, as will prevent incidents such as are now transpiring. If we cannot accomplish that all-important purpose in respect of our domestic affairs, there cannot be very much hope for that wider purpose which has been attempted in the constitution of the Society of Nations. In this country. we have a common citizenship; we live under the same form of government; we have the like ideals; we have practically the same aspirations; although sometimes different interests and sometimes prejudices may appear, but there ought to be a much more favourable condition for assuring industrial co-operation and peace in this country through the effort and co-operation

of employers and employed fully realizing their responsibilities than is to be discovered in the foundations of the Society of Nations from which we confidently anticipate a great service to the world.

I do indeed hope that the strike at Winnipeg may be terminated amicably. I should also allude to what has taken place at Calgary and at Edmonton, and read the communications which have been addressed to the postal authorities in those cities. On the 24th instant the Postmaster General sent this telegram to the postmaster at Calgary:

Regret to learn everything points to sympathetic strike with Winnipeg on part of postal workers. Government considers such action wholly unwarranted and in violation of the plain duty of postal employees. The prompt handling of His Majesty's mails and the maintenance of the public postal service at this time is the first obligation of every employee under the Post Office Department. For euch employees to seek to embarrass or prevent the prompt handling of His Majesty's mails by a sympathetic strike is entirely incompatible with loyal service to the country and all postal employees joining in a sympathetic strike will be deemed to have resigned their positions in His Majesty's service and their places will be promptly fllledi All loyal employees will be supported and protected by the Government. Make known to. employees and keep Department promptly informed.

As far as Winnipeg is concerned, I should add that a report reached me, before coming to the (House, that seventy of the postal employees have returned to work, and that no difficulty has been experienced in filling the places of those who have not returned. .

Mr. J. H. BURNHAM (Peterborough West):

I would like to ask the Acting

Minister of Labour a question that does not conflict at all with what has already been said. Is the Government taking steps to restore the balance between the cost of production and the cost of consumption in *Canada; or does it intend to leave that matter to be fought out by the people?

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:

It is rather

difficult to answer so comprehensive a question. I can only repeat what I said a few days ago, that the cost-of-living officers of the Labour Department are daily engaged in watching the particular matter to which my hon. friend refers. In the course of a few days the Labour Estimates will be taken up and there will be opportunity then for discussing the matter at greater length than I can now go into it.

Sir SAM HUGHES:

Is that why eggs

are 70 cents a dozen?

IMr. MURPHY: In connection with

the explanation the Right Hon. the Prime Minister gave to the House, may I ask the Right Hon. gentleman if he is in a position to state what proportion the postal employees on strike at Winnipeg bear to the total number of persons on strike there?

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

I am speaking

from memory when I say that those on strike in the postal service number between 500 and GOO.

Mr. MURPHY:

Does my hon. friend

know what proportion they bear to the total number on strike?

Mr. A. K. (MACLEAN: As five or six

hundred is to twenty-five thousand.

Mr. MURPHY:

It is a mere fraction.

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

Yes.

Mr. 'MURPHY: So the explanation of

my right hon. friend relates to a mere fraction, and not to the vast majority of the people on strike.

Sir ROBERT BORDEN:

I endeavoured

to cover the whole situation. My explanation as to the number of people who have returned to work obviously referred to the postal employees.

Mr. D. D. McKENZIE (Cape Breton North):

The right hon. the leader of the

Government has given us the result so far as between the postal authorities and their employees and that 70 of the latter had gone back to work. Would the Prime Minister be able to give us any idea as to what progress is -being made in regard to a settlement of the general strike? What negotiations are going on in that behalf?

iSir ROBERT BORDEN: I can only tell

my hon. friend that possibly later in the day we may have some more detailed information to lay upon the table of the House. For the present, I must confine myself to saying that the news we have received this afternoon is of a distinctly reassuring character.

Mr. MURPHY:

Before asking any

further 'questions, Mr. Speaker, may I point-out that, as my hon. friend, the Minister of Finance, would say, certain members of the Government are not synchronizing. Yesterday afternoon I inquired what information the. Government had with reference to the strikes that were said to be pending at Calgary, Edmonton, and other places in the West. The hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Maclean), -speaking on behalf of the Government, said: "There is no official information as to the probability of a strike in Calgary and other places in the West." That statement was made, although the Ottawa Evening Journal published that afternoon the following item of news on its front page:

It is understood that the Ottawa (Ministers have received formal notification of the threatened action in the western cities.

That afternoon my right hon. friend read certain telegrams that passeu on -Saturday last, the 24th inst., from the Postmaster General, a member of the Cabinet, regarding these strikes. Now I would like to ask my hon. friend (Mr. A. K. Maclean) whether the Postmaster General is likely to have any other information on these matters that he has not communicated to my hon-. friend or to the other members of the Government?

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:

My answer was

perfectly correct. My hon. friend asked me if a strike had actually occurred in certain cities of the West. In reply, I stated that there was no official information up to that time that there actually was a strike. Of course, I knew that a strike was probable, as indeed the papers actually stated threats had been made to that end.

Mr. MURPHY:

My hon. friend said the Government had no information as to the probability of a strike. .