October 2, 1919

UNION

Albert Edward Kemp (Minister of the Overseas Military Forces)

Unionist

Sir EDWARD KEMP (Minister of the Overseas Military Forces):

Mr. Speaker, I have been asked on several occasions for information regarding members of the Overseas Military Forces in Canada who are detained in England under sentences of varying [periods'. tCbnsidering the large number of soldiers who were sent overseas, I think that the figures which I am about to give will be considered as very satisfac-

tory and as indicating that the conduct of our soldiers was most exemplary and the discipline excellent. It will probably be found that the number that it was necessary to convict for various causes would be much less than the number that would be cnvicted of offences from amongst the civil population of Canada during a,.similar period.

Several months ago I requested Judge Dennistoun, of Winnipeg, who was Deputy Judge Advocate General of the Overseas Military Forces of Canada, to return to England from Winnipeg for the purpose of reviewing these cases individually, the object being to look into the matter carefully and, if possible, to reduce or commute the sentences. The policy was to exercise as much leniency as was possible under all the circumstances. Colonel Dennistoun did review the cases and he submitted a report upon each case; that report is available to any member of the House who desires to see it.

The figures to which I have referred are contained in the following statement:

Analysis of report of Deiputy Judge Advocate General, O.M.F.C., on Revision of Sentences. Total number of members of O.M.F.C. in prison on 1st July, 1919, undergoing sentences imposed by military tribunals 170 Sentenced by military tribunals between 1st July, 1919, and 1st September, 1919 29

Total number of members of O.M.F.C. in prison on 1st July, 1919, undergoing

sentences imposed by civil authorities.. 46

Sentenced by civil authorities between 1st July, 1919, and 1st September, 1919.. .. 29

Total 274

Number of military sentences:

(a) Remitted [DOT][DOT][DOT][DOT][DOT][DOT] 77

(b) Commuted in part from imprisonment to detention barracks 90

Number of cases in which no action in respect to sentence was recommended.. .. 86

Number of cases reserved for future consideration 10

Number of civil sentences for the commutation of which application to the Home Secretary has been made 5

Date of release of prisoners:

Number of prisoners who have been released from Imprisonment between 1st July, and 1st September, 1919.. .. 74

Numbers of prisoners to be released during months of: September, 1919.. .. 22October, " .. .. 24November, " .. .. 34December, " .. .. 32January, 1920.. .. 42

(a) Number of prisoners whose sentences expire after January 31, 1920:

(1) Where sentenced by military

courts 21

(2) Where sentenced by civil courts 25

(a) These cases an where convictions are for murder, manslaughter, rape, burglary, larceny.

Number of cases not yet reviewed 5

(These cases have been tried in the civil courts within the past two weeks.)

That is two weeks prior to the 9th September last.

When prisoner is released from imprisonment and sent to detention barracks he is then retained only until his documentation is completed and arrangements for his sailing made.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CANADIAN SOLDIERS SENTENCED IN ENGLAND.
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DEPORTATION OF POLES AND UKRAINIANS.


On the Orders of the eDay:


L LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux

Laurier Liberal

Hon. RODOLPHE LEMIEUX (Maison-neuve):

Might I call the attention of the Government to the fact that several Poles and Ukrainians are being deported to their native countries? I am asking on behalf of these Poles and Ukrainians that the Government consider their ca es very carefully, as they claim that they are not alien enemies. I would say that the Government does not take any action without full knowledge in each particular case; but as these people are being deported to their countries where the cost of living is, according to their information, simply exorbitant and as they claim to be friendly aliens, they a9k the Government to consider each case very carefully. There are at present some at the camp-I do not venture to pronounce the name.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DEPORTATION OF POLES AND UKRAINIANS.
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UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

Kapuskasing.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DEPORTATION OF POLES AND UKRAINIANS.
Permalink
L LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux

Laurier Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX:

My hon. friend is more familiar with the name than I. I would like him to look up the records in order to see if they should really be considered as enemy aliens.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DEPORTATION OF POLES AND UKRAINIANS.
Permalink
UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Hon. C. J. DOHERTY ((Minister of Justice) :

As I understand the matter, no one is being deported exclusively on the ground that he is a Pole or a Ukrainian where he comes under the conditions which, under the Treaty, would give him the nationality of the newly-created country. There are cases of men claiming to be Poles or Ukrainians and in some instances deportation has taken place, but it has been upon tire ground of the undesirability of the individual man in any case where it has been shown that he is really a Pole or a Ukrainian. Of course, there are the cases of some men who have claimed to be Poles or Ukrainians, but who have not been in a position to establish the fact. The principle is that a man is not deported simply because he be a man of the nationality of

any of the countries which are now friendly aliens. Of course, where he happens to be an, undesirable man, he should be dealt with on the basis of his undesirability.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DEPORTATION OF POLES AND UKRAINIANS.
Permalink
L LIB

Rodolphe Lemieux

Laurier Liberal

Mr. LEMIEUX:

I would ask my hon. friend to remember ith-a-t many of tihese foreigners are very ignorant and have been [DOT]kept in their own country mostly in servitude and perhaps unaware that they belong to another country friendly to the Allies. I would, therefore, like my hon. friend to weigh their cases very carefully.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DEPORTATION OF POLES AND UKRAINIANS.
Permalink
UNION

Charles Joseph Doherty (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Unionist

Mr. DOHERTY:

They are all carefully considered.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   DEPORTATION OF POLES AND UKRAINIANS.
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CIVIL SERVICE ACT, 1918-AMENDMENT.


Hon. A. K. MACLEAN moved second reading of Bill No. 18, to amend the Civil Service Act, 1918. Motion agreed to. Hon. Mr. MACLEAN thereupon moved that the House go into committee on the Bill.


L LIB

Jacques Bureau

Laurier Liberal

Mr. BUREAU:

We have not the Bill.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CIVIL SERVICE ACT, 1918-AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   CLASSIFICATION OF THE CIVIL SERVICE DISCUSSED ON SECOND READING OF BILL.
Permalink
UNION

William Findlay Maclean

Unionist

Mr. MACLEAN:

I desire to withdraw the motion, Mr. Speaker.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CIVIL SERVICE ACT, 1918-AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   CLASSIFICATION OF THE CIVIL SERVICE DISCUSSED ON SECOND READING OF BILL.
Permalink
UNION

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Unionist

Mr. SPEAKER:

Is it the pleasure of hon. members that the minister should have leave to withdraw his motion that the Bill be submitted to the Committee of the Whole House?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CIVIL SERVICE ACT, 1918-AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   CLASSIFICATION OF THE CIVIL SERVICE DISCUSSED ON SECOND READING OF BILL.
Permalink
?

Some hon. MEMBERS:

Carried.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CIVIL SERVICE ACT, 1918-AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   CLASSIFICATION OF THE CIVIL SERVICE DISCUSSED ON SECOND READING OF BILL.
Permalink
UNION

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Unionist

Mr. SPEAKER:

The motion for the second reading I declared " carried," but the minister desires now to speak upon the second reading. Is it the pleasure of the House that the minister should do so?

Some - hon. MEMBERS: Carried.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CIVIL SERVICE ACT, 1918-AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   CLASSIFICATION OF THE CIVIL SERVICE DISCUSSED ON SECOND READING OF BILL.
Permalink
L LIB

Jacques Bureau

Laurier Liberal

Mr. BUREAU:

Is the Bill distributed? I have not a copy of it.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CIVIL SERVICE ACT, 1918-AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   CLASSIFICATION OF THE CIVIL SERVICE DISCUSSED ON SECOND READING OF BILL.
Permalink
UNION

William Findlay Maclean

Unionist

Mr. MACLEAN:

Yes, the Bill is

distributed. In considering many Bills I must admit that in my experience there is no advantage in discussing the Bill in Committee of the Whole; but I anticipate there will be more or less discussion on the principle of this Bill and the Civil Service Act of 1918, which this Bill purposes amending. Therefore, probably it is in the interest of orderly debate that the discussion, if any, take place upon the second

reading, and at least the few observations which I desire to make had better be made now.

The principal and important feature, of this Bill is that it purposes asking Parliament for the ratification of the classification of the Civil Service, a work delegated to and imposed upon the Civil Service Commission by an Act of Parliament passed in the year 1918. The classification so-called was presented to Parliament at its last session and near its end, and the Government deemed it advisable not to push forward the Bill at that time, but to postpone its further consideration to this special session which was then in mind.

I assume that in the meantime hon. gentlemen have had an opportunity of perusing the classification, and that it is unnecessary for me to attempt to go into the minutiae of the very voluminous report, which contains so many details of a varied character.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CIVIL SERVICE ACT, 1918-AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   CLASSIFICATION OF THE CIVIL SERVICE DISCUSSED ON SECOND READING OF BILL.
Permalink
L LIB

Jacques Bureau

Laurier Liberal

Mr. BUREAU:

Do I uriderstand that there has been a re-classification of the classification report which was distributed to hon. members last session?

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CIVIL SERVICE ACT, 1918-AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   CLASSIFICATION OF THE CIVIL SERVICE DISCUSSED ON SECOND READING OF BILL.
Permalink
UNION

Alexander Kenneth Maclean (Minister Without Portfolio)

Unionist

Mr. A. K. MACLEAN:

The classification which was submitted to Parliament last session has been amended, and the amended report has been submitted to Parliament and distributed to hon. members. The classification submitted to Parliament last year was not in every case an object of commendation from the public, from the Civil Service, or from members of Parliament. Obviously and inevitably a work of that character was bound to -contain weaknesses and errors:. I cannot conceive that a work of that kind could possibly be carried out'by any man or group of men without containing defects which are subject to correction. As I have already said, it was the view of the Government that members should have an opportunity of studying the classification submitted last session, and it was also deemed advisable to postpone its consideration in order that during the recess its provisions might be considered further by the Civil Service Commission. Shortly after the prorogation of Parliament last session a committee, known as the Board of Hearing and Recommendation, was set up by the Civil Service Commission. The Chairman of the Board was Mr. Jameson, of tire Civil Service Commission, and he was aided by departmental representatives -and representatives of theCivil Service, one of whom was

a returned soldier. The board held many meetings during the recess and while it did

not have an opportunity of considering all the classes contained in the classification they made many recommendations, and the classification as changed in consequence of their deliberations was submitted to Parliament two or three days ago and has been distributed to hon. members.

I suppose it will be said that the classification as amended and now before Parliament is not entirely satisfactory. I should not be astonished if that is the case, nor would any reflecting man, I trust, because it is humanly impossible to expect a classification of the 'Civil Service of this country, comprising about sixty thousand persons, to be free from criticism.

I have frequently heard it said that the classification is the subject of much criticism by the Civil Service. Naturally, the Civil Service are interested in the matter. It is quite proper and legitimate that they should be, and that they should have every opportunity of submitting their objections to the proper authorities. However, I do not believe the classification should be condemned because some members of the service do not approve of it. The Civil Service is entitled to justice in this matter, and I feel sure that every hon. member of this House will do his utmost to see that justice is extended to that very-large body, who after all are very largely interested in the administration of public affairs in this country. I think, however, I may safely say on behalf of the Civil Service of Canada that 99 per cent of them desire the adoption and 'approval of the classification by Parliament this session, and in its present form. Many of the organized branches of the Civil Service have expressed to me the view that while they appreciate the classification contains defects, and while they realize it may not be possible at this short session to give consideration to all the details, they prefer its adoption now rather than have it go over to another session.

I am much interested in what shall be the procedure in the consideration of this Bill, and I should like the very frank advice and direction of Parliament. If it is given, I shall endeavour to sense it in the very best way I can, and 1 shall follow what seems to me to be the wishes of the majority of hon. members, for after all any matters affecting the Civil Service are fundamentally and primarily as much a matter for Parliament as for the Government, and perhaps more so. Hon. gentlemen realize that it is impossible for me to attempt to explain all the minutiae of the classification. I could not possibly do it, and I am

sure hon. gentlemen will not expect me to attempt it. I should require an army of assistants upon the floor of the House, and even with that aid I fear it would take very many months before we could dispose of the matter if we were to go into all the details. It appears to me, therefore, and I wish to .submit my own view frankly to the House that there are only two ways of dealing with this matter: Either accept the classification, as it now stands, in its entirety, or refer the same at once to a special committee of about twenty-five members who would give consideration to the matter and have the advice and assistance of the Civil Service Commission and their assistants, and hear from the Civil Service, from the public, and any body or bodies interested as to the principles involved in the classification. There is much to be said in favour of either course, and I am willing to accept whichever Parliament desires. There is this to say in favour of the adoption of the classification as it now stands: It would enable us to dispose of this particular item of business quickly and reach prorogation shortly, which I assume most hon. members desire as early as is reasonably possible. In making that statement I have a further view which I must give to the House, namely: that the Civil Service Bill, the second reading of which I am now moving, contains a provision that the Civil Service Commission may add to, take from, or amend the classification as it now stands, subject, of course, to the approval of the Governor in Council.

And behind that, of course, there is always to be remembered the fact that the Civil Service classification is inoperative and of no effect unless Parliament in the future votes the money with which to pay the civil servants. If the House is in favour of the reference of the Bill to a special committee I earnestly hope that we shall be in a position to do so at the close of to-day's proceedings in order that we may make some progress.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not unconscious of the fact that there is a great deal of criticism of the Civil Service Act of 1918 and all that it involves. I have been just a little too long in public life not to have anticipated that criticism, not to have heard it and not to have clearly realized tne reasons for it; and it is all, of course, quite natural to me. The Civil Service Act of 1918 was truly revolutionary.

Topic:   QUESTIONS.
Subtopic:   CIVIL SERVICE ACT, 1918-AMENDMENT.
Sub-subtopic:   CLASSIFICATION OF THE CIVIL SERVICE DISCUSSED ON SECOND READING OF BILL.
Permalink

October 2, 1919